Episode 55: Finding Joy After Tragedy with Tom Farley, Part Two

00;00;08;16 – 00;00;33;29
Kelly Parbs
Welcome to part two of my conversation with Tom Farley. In this episode, Tom will share more about how humor shaped his childhood, the journey of discovering who he really is, and his powerful desire to help people who are seeking recovery from addiction. You mentioned Mount Rushmore of humor at the funeral. Do you mean other big name comedians?

00;00;34;00 – 00;00;46;28
Tom Farley
Yeah, Dan Aykroyd. Yeah. Sandler. John Goodman. Who else was? Yeah. George Wendt. A whole bus came up from Second City and thank God for them. I just love them all. And they were there for us.

00;00;47;00 – 00;01;04;25
Kelly Parbs
You know, I, I think about them and other comedians, and I wonder if Chris’s journey and, and death caused any of them to take a look at their own addictions or behaviors. And I wonder if that caused change in any of them.

00;01;04;27 – 00;01;53;13
Tom Farley
That’s an interesting question. I don’t know, but what I have, I spent an awful lot of time when I did have the opportunity to talk to them, you know, because they felt the same way. You know, everyone does when this happens to them, whether somebody dies, the guilt, and like, I could have done something. He was my friend. I could have done more, it’s like, you know, no, I had to tell them, no you couldn’t because we were his family and we couldn’t either. I mean, to, to what they were, you couldn’t have saved him. Yeah, there’s a lot of stuff we could have done, but I don’t think they were talking about that. They’re like, no, you, let that go like I have to because we have to too. That will keep us just in a dark place for a long, long time.

00;01;53;13 – 00;02;51;00
Kelly Parbs
You just can’t go backwards. But I do have to say, Tom, that the, the “what if”s and the “what could I have done”s, those are really normal reactions to trauma and grief and death and, and to have those reactions is normal. But what I talk to clients about all the time is what I recommend is that you look at that “what if” situation and ask yourself, what might I learn from that going forward? Might, what might I do differently in the future, knowing now what I know because of this situation? And how can I make my life or someone else’s life better moving forward because of what I learned? And if we can pull a positive from that, even though we so wish that that hadn’t happened, that Chris didn’t die. But if we can bring something positive forward and that’s part of what you are doing now.

00;02;51;03 – 00;02;52;25
Tom Farley
That’s exactly what we’re doing Kelly, yeah.

00;02;52;28 – 00;02;54;19
Kelly Parbs
With your work. Yeah, tell us about that.

00;02;54;21 – 00;04;21;00
Tom Farley
Well, I mean, it’s. What’s funny is I do an awful lot of talks and keynotes and, and, you know, it’s, it’s getting better, but, you know, for the most part, it’s like, you know, I’m introduced or billed like, this is Chris Farley’s brother. And also a lot of people will come to, a presentation or talk that I give thinking that it’s Chris Farley’s brother talking about Chris Farley and the Farley family. And the beautiful thing is, is when the people come up to me afterwards and say, like, that’s not what I thought this was at all. And like, oh my God, not. And not only did I not expect to hear what I heard, but like, cause you were being so open, honest and vulnerable and, which I’ve learned to do over the years and increased the, the healing I’m able to do so much quicker. But like even more so, is people say, like you’re telling your story and like, I didn’t think I’d have anything in common with Chris Farley or the Farley family or like, but oh my god, like your story. It’s like I heard, I heard so many things that, of my story in your story. I’m like, that’s, that’s what I’m trying to say, that’s, that’s, that’s the whole thing. I’m not, I’m no different from anyone else. I, I, I’ve had the same pain, you know, I mean, it’s just different but it’s still the same pain, you know.

00;04;21;02 – 00;04;47;22
Kelly Parbs
Still that, that human connection. And you and I talked about that in another conversation, the importance of that. And I can hear so much in your voice how important it is for you to share this message of recovery, and that it really comes from a place of truly wanting to impact people’s lives in a meaningful way. And I appreciate I know that it’s hard to be this honest and raw and I appreciate that you’re doing that.

00;04;47;24 – 00;06;49;21
Tom Farley
It is, but you know, it’s, it’s, you know, it’s what I like to say when I, even just talking about my public speaking, which I do an awful lot of. It’s like, yeah, you know, don’t get me wrong, there’s a reason why it’s the biggest fear adults have, it, it’s not natural. But when I get out on a stage and the mic’s in my hand and light in my face, like I am so comfortable in this uncomfortable situation, it just. I seem like I’m the most natural person, and, and I’m like, that’s life. You know, life’s uncomfortable sometimes. You just gotta lean into it and see what comes out the other side. And, yeah, that’s been, that’s been amazing. I had a conversation here at work, I, at recovery.com, which, which is where I work, they want me to like, do a podcast, I’ve been on so many podcasts, because, because I like, I, people say you’re the best guest because like, I don’t want to ask any questions. You’re just like, let it go. Yeah. I’m just, you know, and I said, you know, honestly, I don’t know what I’m going to be like on the other side of the mic, where you are, where you are. But like, I’m gonna, it’s almost like, and this sounds harsh and, you know, people’s jaws dropped yesterday when I said, it’s like, I really don’t care about their story. And people like, “What? then how are you gonna do this podcast?” I go, let me explain. Like, I’ve gotten so used to people asking me about my story and are interested in and, and and me being open and vulnerable and honest. If I were to ask people that, you know, flip the table and like, tell me about, I don’t know if I’d get that same level. So when I start just talking about me and my journey and my family, all of a sudden people want to like, now they want to be vulnerable, like they want to do the, they want to model, you know, me. And, all of a sudden it turns into this, like, now they’ll share. Now they’re gonna be, they want, they want. I’ll have what she’s having.

00;06;49;23 – 00;07;23;24
Kelly Parbs
And they’ll share their story because they, they saw you be raw and vulnerable and honest. And now all of the sudden, they’ll be able to do the same because you’ve given them that level of comfort. It’s very clear to me that you’re all about relationships. And, and we know that addiction and recovery are deeply tied to relationships, both the ones that hurt and the ones that heal. I’m interested in hearing your thoughts on the importance of community and connection for people to overcome and, and work on their addictions.

00;07;23;27 – 00;07;54;03
Tom Farley
That’s, that’s been my thing from the start, you know, right from the moment, you know, I started going out and talking, you know. We, we talk about these diseases, substance abuse and mental illnesses, as diseases of isolation, like, everyone knows that we all know that. We’ve talked about it so much, but we, what we don’t talk about enough is the flip side of that coin which is, we can’t heal in isolation. It demands connection. We can’t do it ourselves.

00;07;54;06 – 00;07;55;15
Kelly Parbs
Absolutely, I agree.

00;07;55;18 – 00;09;13;07
Tom Farley
That’s where the healing takes place. And that’s kind of been my, my thing from the start is, because I know, in the way I describe it, you know, going back to that whole, like, expectation, like I for most of my life, I was putting out this person that I thought the world wanted me to be, that I thought I had to be. And I put so much effort into, into creating this person. And yeah, it didn’t feel right. And like I, deep down I’m like, yeah, but it’s not me. But this is what the world wants so like. The only they I knew how to, how to deal with, the way that made me feel was to drink. I, I, I that’s all I could, I could do. That’s what I was taught. And I know Chris felt the same way. Chris, everyone wanted Chris to be this person, but he was so deep and caring and, and nobody wanted that from him. But that’s all he wanted. I like to say that, at least for me, and I don’t know, probably was for Chris, too. We could be in the middle of a room or a bar, if you will, surrounded by people, center of attention, making everyone laugh and yet not feel more like where we are standing on the surface of the moon.

00;09;13;10 – 00;09;20;26
Kelly Parbs
Oh, someone told me that once, that comedians really can be sad and lonely people and that’s something I didn’t know.

00;09;20;29 – 00;09;30;21
Tom Farley
Because the world wants something else. And like, no I’m human, they don’t want the human or they just want, make me feel better, make me laugh, make me, you know.

00;09;30;24 – 00;09;53;28
Kelly Parbs
So what helped you start turning the corner and realizing, you know, there was life before Chris died, and now there’s life after. And I have, I have something to do in this world. I have a mission in this world being Tom Farley, not, not only the brother of Chris. What helped you turn that corner to start leading a life of sobriety?

00;09;54;01 – 00;10;10;01
Tom Farley
The ability to like just being my authentic self. Like it delivered what I always wanted, which was people caring about me, connecting with others. Sense of belonging came from that, just being, just me. People wanted me to,

00;10;10;02 – 00;10;11;27
Kelly Parbs
You’re good enough, you’re enough.

00;10;11;29 – 00;11;18;14
Tom Farley
Yeah, and the thing is, and it was the little things I learned in recovery is, honestly, I, I was, I was Irish, you know, I’m, I’m Irish and my profession, I was, marketing communications, you know, PR professional. So, like, I know how to, like, I know how to craft a story, I know how to BS. And the first time I went into a meeting and heard the words rigorous honesty, I’m like, wait, that’s a thing? Like I can be honest, like rigorously honest, like, I thought I had, like, kind of, you know, you know, create a story, like a narrative and like, no, just be rigorous honest, you know, and so, and then I, you know, all these other emotions that I began to learn, as I said before, like gratitude and humility. And it dawned on me, not too long ago, actually, that that person, that that, that person I was putting out to the world, that wasn’t a real person, wasn’t me, wasn’t my authentic self. How could that person ever be honest or humble or grateful because it wasn’t a real person?

00;11;18;19 – 00;11;20;03
Kelly Parbs
It’s not real. Yeah.

00;11;20;06 – 00;11;43;18
Tom Farley
Only I can be that. I only I can do that. And when, that hit me like a ton of bricks, like the, you were struggling so hard for this like, but you, but you weren’t showing people who you were. And once I did and I, you know, started to understand gratitude and, and humility. Take the ego out of things like, oh my gosh, wow.

00;11;43;21 – 00;11;59;20
Kelly Parbs
You had these opportunities to really feel and experience what it is like to be your authentic self. Tom Farley is a good guy, standing on his own and especially good when he’s sober, and practicing gratitude and humility and good things started coming from that.

00;11;59;23 – 00;12;40;27
Tom Farley
Well and, and the most like, like all the positive things I was starting to build, I was also eliminating or reducing the two things that just kept me, you know, stone cold. It was where I was, which was fear and self-doubt. I didn’t, I never realized how much that, I was consumed by those two things. But the more I lean into these other things, I’m realizing that, oh, wow. Like, just concentrating on, you know, humility and gratitude and honesty, I’m like, there’s no room for fear and self-doubt because, like, this is

00;12;41;03 – 00;12;42;18
Kelly Parbs
It’s not producing anything good, right?

00;12;42;18 – 00;12;44;13
Tom Farley
Yeah. So,

00;12;44;15 – 00;12;56;12
Kelly Parbs
I’m so glad you came to that realization and that your life is going in a much more positive direction. And I’m interested in hearing about your current work at recovery.com. What would you like our listeners to know about that?

00;12;56;15 – 00;14;02;14
Tom Farley
Well, first of all, before this, I worked at a, as an outreach person for a treatment and outpatient facility in Rockford called Rosecrance. And this, this ability to go from all these years I was an advocate talking about these things, but now I had this ability, and I could only have done it from a place of recovery. And, you know, where I was I, of helping others so that it was I got to see that firsthand. I got to work with clinicians. I, you know, I could never be a clinician, but to work with, like to see that healing like, oh my God, they’re like, they’re helping. I loved being connected to that. And I happened to meet this, at a conference, one of the business development persons of this, it was called Rehab Path back then. And I said, what is it? And it’s like, well, we’re, it’s a website that helps people find the right treatment. You know, it’s like a, like a TripAdvisor for, for treatment. I’m like, that’s cool. Like, where are you based? You know, he goes, well, Madison, Wisconsin, like wait hold on.

00;14;02;15 – 00;14;03;01
Kelly Parbs
Just where you’re from.

00;14;03;05 – 00;15;00;21
Tom Farley
Hold on here. And I’m like, and so when I came back from this conference I connect with them. I’m like I really like what they’re doing. So I stay connected to them. And a long story short, like last year, they had an opportunity to buy the domain name recovery.com for a lot of money. And they’re like, oh man, should we spend, there a startup or a tech startup? And like, you know what they took the, they said, let’s do it. And I had lunch with the founders when I was thinking about coming over, I was pleading with them to hire me. They were saying, yeah, like, did it have an effect on our business? Yeah. People are like, all of a sudden it defined who we were, but all of a sudden and both these founders who are not in recovery, by the way, said, then all of a sudden we like realized, oh my gosh, we just bought the domain name recovery.com. We have to honor that and be that. Like soon as I heard him say that, I’m like, hey, now you have to hire me.

00;15;00;21 – 00;15;01;24
Kelly Parbs
I want in.

00;15;01;26 – 00;15;46;17
Tom Farley
I gotta work here. But what I love, it’s like, yeah, it, it matches people up with the right treatment. But, you know, for instance, like a lot of people just Google a lot, people don’t know. And it’s like you got to go to treatment, like where it’s like googling, I want to buy a blue shirt. What you’re going to get back is, you know, pictures of like, you know, a turquoise, a navy, you know, long sleeve, short sleeve, and you, and you got to decide there, like, this is a real, you know, what do you need? Do you want 12 step or do you, do you have an opioid issue or is it mental health? What’s your, what’s, what’s your? Let’s give you the right choices. Because, and not only that, but like you go, you go online. It’s it’s the wild West. You don’t know what you’re getting.

00;15;46;23 – 00;16;29;20
Kelly Parbs
Absolutely. That’s true. And I can attest to the fact I’ve spoken with probably hundreds and hundreds of people who are in that vulnerable moment of making the decision that, okay, my family, my friends, people I love have been saying to me for a long time that I need help and right now is the moment. And then for it to be complicated and tricky and, and difficult, that can just blow the whole thing. So to be able to go to a resource like recovery.com, which I want to be honest and say I’m not really familiar with, but I’m going to become familiar with, what I hear you saying is that they can go there and it will help them through that process of delineating.

00;16;29;24 – 00;17;44;27
Tom Farley
Yeah, not just the process, but what I love is that all the back side. So we’re kind of talking about the treatment side of things and find the right treatment. But this whole back side of recovery, like ,what is it like because we don’t think we really tell people like this is rest of life, you know, treatment is just the start of the journey like and all, until we’ve built up all these resource sources like, you know, now. And basically it’s giving back when somebody is looking for treatment, it’s always like you’re told where to go or, you know, go here and it’s not efficient or whatever, and you really don’t know. And that lack of knowledge doesn’t help. And so giving people back that knowledge, that agency of like you are in control of this is amazing. But we talked like how we got connected in the first place, you know, come through EAPs, you know, and, and you know, great resources and resources are great. And, but like, you need the knowledge too like, it’s a two way thing. Like the more knowledge you have, you know, compared with like the choices I give you. And, or you can better tell me what you’re looking for, man then you end up with some really strong choices.

00;17;45;00 – 00;17;58;20
Kelly Parbs
A great referral it sounds like. If we can really increase all of these different areas that are a good match for the person who’s seeking treatment, maybe there’d be a better outcome for them. That’s, that’s awesome.

00;17;58;22 – 00;18;19;09
Tom Farley
Yeah, it’s always kind of that one sided thing that’s like, no, you need to educate yourself too. And like you, you know, and you need to help us, these resources, whether it’s an EAP or, or recovery.com website, like help us find you the right place. We have, we know all these places, but you gotta help us.

00;18;19;09 – 00;18;39;08
Kelly Parbs
Be a participant, right? Be a participant in finding the best options for you. And I would imagine too, the people who love the person who is in need of, of resources, that helps them too if they are in a position of feeling so desperate. I so want to find a resource for my son or, or for my loved one. I would imagine this would be a great resource.

00;18;39;11 – 00;19;06;22
Tom Farley
But also for them too, you know, it’s a family thing. So there’s family. Like, I know you want to help, but you know, you need to know what it is too, you know, as I said before, a lot of, a lot of, especially with families, they want, like, help my loved one. But the fear of like, am I, am I part of like, what, what’s happened here or what? Of course you are. Like, you know.

00;19;06;22 – 00;19;08;22
Kelly Parbs
Sure, it’s a family illness for sure.

00;19;08;25 – 00;19;09;21
Tom Farley
You know.

00;19;09;24 – 00;19;12;05
Kelly Parbs
So there’s resources for them too. Is that what I’m hearing?

00;19;12;08 – 00;19;13;11
Tom Farley
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely

00;19;13;11 – 00;19;26;22
Kelly Parbs
Awesome. I’m, I’m noticing the time here. And I just have a couple more questions for you. Is it true or is it a rumor, I’ve heard that there’s a movie in the works based on your book, The Chris Farley Show?

00;19;26;24 – 00;19;51;18
Tom Farley
Yeah it is, I did thank you. I did, yeah. Movie rights were bought. They’re going to start to make that, I guess. I, it’s so funny I like, people ask me about the movie aspect of things. I’m like, you know, I, I don’t want to. I don’t want to go there. I want to think about it, this movie is going to be fun. You know, they have premiers and stuff, but I’m thinking of it as an, you know, continuation of the work I’m doing, like it’s got all these aspects of my life.

00;19;51;20 – 00;19;57;01
Kelly Parbs
Yeah, that was my next question. Whether or not it was going to be connected to your work.

00;19;57;02 – 00;20;32;00
Tom Farley
100%. You know, it’s, it’s there like let’s, you know, it’s almost like I, you know, the book I do, you know, way back when it came out at Edgewood with your daughter, like we talked about some pretty amazing stuff that came out. You know, one example, I, we did one kind of larger group, at Edgewood and this woman, she goes, I have a question, it’s like, there’s not a lot of female voices in this book. And I’m like, wow, yeah, you’re right. You know.

00;20;32;02 – 00;20;33;00
Kelly Parbs
Interesting.

00;20;33;08 – 00;20;49;28
Tom Farley
Because and, because we, we can really go deep in that. But like, yeah, we it wasn’t that Chris was this, you know, hyper misogynist guy. It’s like, you know, we, relations were difficult for us. You know, the the guys he got.

00;20;50;00 – 00;20;51;28
Kelly Parbs
Sure and there were a lot more men in your family.

00;20;52;02 – 00;21;20;15
Tom Farley
And a lot more men in our family. But like, it’s just like, it’s kind of like those, those learning emotion thing, it was, love was one of the difficult things for us, you know, another of the difficult things and the, and again, the, so we, the language that we used as we did with every other emotion we use would love too, which was humor, which I know, I know in my own marriage that, that it was stressful, like everything was a joke.

00;21;20;15 – 00;21;22;17
Kelly Parbs
That could get old, I would imagine.

00;21;22;19 – 00;21;30;28
Tom Farley
Yeah, I didn’t realize it, but because it was the only language I knew. But yeah, it was those kinds of things. And, yeah. And so it was

00;21;30;28 – 00;21;37;10
Kelly Parbs
I can’t wait to see it. I can’t wait to see the movie when it comes out

00;21;37;13 – 00;21;44;03
Tom Farley
I hope the movie has some things, produces the same kind of, like insight because I’m, I’m willing to go there like, let’s talk about it.

00;21;44;05 – 00;22;05;07
Kelly Parbs
Well, I’m sure you’ll have a lot of input into that, and, and I can’t wait for it to come out. And I just have to ask, just out of curiosity, my favorite Chris Farley movie, hands down, is Tommy Boy and does, does Tom, does the name Tom come from your dad and, and from you or was that just a coincidence?

00;22;05;09 – 00;23;22;16
Tom Farley
Oh man, It’s so painful that, that’s the question I get so much, you know, it’s, I’m joking, but like the story. Here’s the story. So Chris is, the movie, you know, Chris was, his original character was Billy Callahan III. And he was going to be, it was called Billy the Third: A Midwestern. That was the working title of the movie. But just before the end, like Lorne Michaels of Saturday Night Live came to Chris and said, Adam’s coming out with Billy Madison, so we can’t have two Billy’s. You gotta have, you gotta change the name. And at that time, my son was born and I named him Tom Farley III after my dad after me and, you know, and Chris said, okay, I’ll be Tommy Boy, and I’m going up to him. I’m like, it’s so cool. You name after like your character after, after Dad and me and Tommy, and he looked me straight in the eye and said, no, I, I named after Dad and Tommy. Oh, you know, you know what? I, that’s an, that’s an older brother, younger sibling thing that I probably deserved. And I have accepted that.

00;23;22;18 – 00;23;34;22
Kelly Parbs
But, you know, it’s an example of exactly what you were explaining to us that you, it was hard to get to those intimate moments. And that could have been an intimate moment, but it was shut down with humor.

00;23;34;25 – 00;23;41;11
Tom Farley
Yep. 100%. I never, never put those two together. But you’re 100% right. Yeah. Wow

00;23;41;14 – 00;23;42;06
Kelly Parbs
Thank you, Tom.

00;23;42;13 – 00;23;43;11
Tom Farley
This has been great.

00;23;43;15 – 00;24;04;13
Kelly Parbs
I’m so grateful for the time that you spent with me today and that you were so honest and open, and I sure am so sorry that you lost your brother. And I do wish that you hadn’t gone through many hardships. But at the same time, I’m so grateful you’re using those experiences to help people and many of us are grateful for that.

00;24;04;13 – 00;24;46;12
Tom Farley
And you know, I’ll, one last thing is to is, you know, so so my, my, our father died a year after Chris. And that’s more like most people’s loss, you know, after six months, nobody really asked me about my dad anymore. But I would love to talk about it. Like, you know, a memory of dad did this or. But I, that’s pretty much common with most people. Yeah, but with Chris, there’s not a day goes by that somebody asked me or says they’re sorry and he is as alive as, because of that. Or, you know, as I say, because of the book and the work I’m doing, I have a better relationship with my brother now than ever when we were alive. And I.

00;24;46;14 – 00;24;46;26
Kelly Parbs
Ah, interesting.

00;24;46;26 – 00;24;51;00
Tom Farley
It’s a gift and a blessing. Like, who gets that?

00;24;51;02 – 00;25;16;00
Kelly Parbs
A gift and a blessing indeed. And, you know, it occurred to me Tom when you are a podcast host, my recommendation is the name of your podcast is Rigorous Honesty. And maybe you should have a guest on to talk about grief because boy, I would. I’d love to hear you talk about your dad and, and your grief journey. And if I can ever help you with any of that, please look me up again.

00;25;16;01 – 00;25;31;26
Tom Farley
That’s huge. And I, you know, I’ve done work all around this subject, but those, those few things, like grief, like, I could go a lot deeper and I’m like, no thanks. I lean into my ADHD and find something else to distract me.

00;25;31;28 – 00;25;42;00
Kelly Parbs
Well, again, thank you for your time. Is there anything we didn’t talk about today that, that you wanted to leave our listeners with? Any final thoughts or takeaways before we wrap it up?

00;25;42;02 – 00;26;14;17
Tom Farley
No, but I truly, I guess, you know, I don’t know what, who your audience is, but I, we’re a couple of Wisconsin people like one of the things I love to tell audiences here, in the state that we grew up and loved, is one of the things that I think why we’re still talking about Chris, why we still love Chris, and is why I love him is, is, is that Chris never forgot, as big as he got, he never forgot that he was just Chris from Wisconsin.

00;26;14;20 – 00;26;15;11
Kelly Parbs
Right.

00;26;15;14 – 00;26;37;10
Tom Farley
And I think, like, people see it, like he’s us, you know, he’s like, oh, we think we know Chris because he’s just doing the Wisconsin thing. The Wisconsin kid that we just love and, and I think and I just, I love that, that that’s something he left us with.

00;26;37;13 – 00;26;57;06
Kelly Parbs
He absolutely did. And I referenced before my favorite movie being Tommy Boy. And that, you know, Marquette University, that’s where my daughter went. University of Wisconsin. That’s where my son went. Edgewood, my other, you know. So he is, he really portrayed just being a Wisconsin guy. And I, I for one really appreciated that. Yeah.

00;26;57;08 – 00;27;00;05
Tom Farley
Yeah. Well he, he is, he’s us man. He’s us.

00;27;00;05 – 00;27;06;19
Kelly Parbs
He’s us. He’s us. Thank you. Tom, it’s really been a pleasure. And I look forward to future conversations.

00;27;06;21 – 00;27;10;18
Tom Farley
Yeah. 100%, anytime. Thank you. Kelly, this was a lot of fun. Yeah.

00;27;10;20 – 00;28;16;07
Kelly Parbs
A lot of fun indeed. Thank you for joining us for this insightful conversation with Tom Farley from navigating life in a family that used humor to mask emotions, to finding his own identity beyond being Chris Farley’s brother. Tom’s journey offers a powerful testament to resilience and self-discovery. If you or someone you know is struggling with addiction, Tom’s message is clear, recovery is possible and help is available. Visit recovery.com for resources and support on the path to healing. Until next time, take care of yourself. Reach out when you need it. And remember, no one has to face life’s battles alone. To hear more episodes of OnTopic with Empathia, visit our website empathia.com. Follow us on social media @empathia and subscribe to OnTopic with Empathia to hear new episodes as soon as they go live. I’m your host, Kelly Parbs. Thanks for listening to OnTopic with Empathia.