Episode 35: Self-Confidence in Leadership with Erin Petersen, Part One

00;00;09;01 – 00;01;37;21
Kelly Parbs
According to recent research, 69% of employees say they would work harder if they felt their efforts were better recognized. 79% of people who leave their job say they didn’t feel appreciated. 50% of employees have cited bad leadership and management as their main reason for leaving a job. Another study indicates that only 11% of companies believe they have strong leadership. As someone who has worked with organizations, employees, and leaders for my whole career, it’s clear to me that healthy, effective leadership makes all the difference. This got me thinking – what are the qualities of a strong, effective leader? I’m your host, Kelly Parbs. I’m a licensed clinical social worker with Empathia. Today, I will be talking with Erin Petersen. Erin is an accomplished individual with experience in many areas of management. She has a master’s degree in social work and has provided professional coaching and education to countless leaders, helping them assess and improve their leadership skills. She has a special passion for helping people boost their self-confidence, and has found that leaders who have high self-confidence are the most effective in their roles. Thank you for joining me today, Erin!

00;01;37;23 – 00;01;38;16
Erin Petersen
How are you?

00;01;38;23 – 00;01;40;20
Kelly Parbs
I’m doing well. How about you?

00;01;40;22 – 00;01;41;27
Erin Petersen
I’m doing great!

00;01;41;29 – 00;03;01;09
Kelly Parbs
Excellent! I’m really excited about our discussion today! I think it is going to be applicable to a lot of our listeners. Many of us come across poor leaders, right? Or even toxic leaders in, in our careers. They’re the ones who are dismissive of people’s ideas, rarely consider input from their staff, make decisions with no regard for how those decisions might impact their teams. Oftentimes, they don’t lead by example. They kind of have a ‘rules for thee but not for me’ sort of approach. Their criticism is insensitive and not constructive, and they wonder why they have disengaged employees or high turnover! But on the flip side, many of us have worked with really excellent leaders, and these leaders create positive, productive work environments and ultimately employee wellness. And since I’m all about employee wellness, I’m really excited about our discussion today! Erin, we know that self-confidence is a key characteristic of a good leader. Maybe you can start us off today by explaining why it’s important for leaders to be self-confident.

00;03;01;10 – 00;04;28;17
Erin Petersen
Yeah, I think, I think one of the the biggest things is for us as leaders, to be successful is to have a sense of self, and to be- to be strong in that. There’s a bit of like, if you think about it, as leaders, we have to kind of overcome a lot of stuff and build ourselves. So, you know, that’s where that resilience and confidence kind of comes in when we’re strong with our own sense of self. We build leaders amongst us, right? And the obstacles that we all go through, the- the the constant changes within the workforce. There’s so many things that we as leaders go through, and it’s very easy for us to maybe, possibly like get down on ourselves, right? And because we’re human and that’s all part of, that’s- that’s that’s part of like our, you know, human nature. But I believe, like, having a positive mindset, and the willingness to, to learn as a leader is, is really important. And, you know, finding your skill set or what I call, like, my toolbox or my backpack of knowledge, self-confidence is a- is a big thing. You don’t want to go overboard with it, right? So you don’t want to go over too much with, you know, thinking that we know everything, that’s where a leader needs to be able to be taught-learned, you know.

00;04;28;19 – 00;04;40;02
Kelly Parbs
Sure! There’s that fine line – you certainly, as a leader, don’t want to come across as being the person who knows it all, who can’t take advice, who’s arrogant. That’s of course not what we’re talking about, right?

00;04;40;04 – 00;04;40;29
Erin Petersen
Right!

00;04;41;01 – 00;04;43;13
Kelly Parbs
Self-confidence is different than that, ror sure.

00;04;43;16 – 00;04;44;12
Erin Petersen
For sure.

00;04;44;15 – 00;04;49;23
Kelly Parbs
What role does self-confidence play in emotional intelligence?

00;04;49;26 – 00;06;01;13
Erin Petersen
So emotional intelligence to me is a set of skills and abilities. And it helps us as managers, leaders. to help understand and express- express ourselves or our emotional selves effectively, but on a professional basis. And there’s some key elements to that would be, you know, self-awareness and self-regulation, motivation, empathy and social skills and being able to combine that emotional intelligence to build that self-confidence within a person. It’s kind of it coincides together if you ask me. because that builds that strength that, a leader has to, to kind of go through really difficult situations or really positive situations. You know, that doesn’t always have to be a negative. So I think one of the- the big one would, would be that that self-regulation, you know, the capacity to manage, regulate your own emotions and impulses and kind of balance yourself out. And that’s where that emotional intelligence kind of comes in and allows you to maintain.

00;06;01;16 – 00;07;10;12
Kelly Parbs
Sure! I work with organizations all the time, right? It’s what I do for a living. And when I work with an organization where leaders have a high level of emotional intelligence, it’s very evident. Right now, I’m working with a company who’s going through a major workforce reduction, and we know how very stressful that is for leaders and for employees. But when you have leaders who have high levels of emotional intelligence and self-confidence, they are able to recognize that different people are going to have different reactions, right? To the layoff based on their own individual journeys and what they’re going through, maybe outside of work. And a strong leader with high emotional intelligence isn’t going to judge those reactions, but will instead be able to show empathy. They’ll remain calm. They’re not going to personalize those reactions. And ultimately then, a really tough situation is going to go better than it would have with a strong leader.

00;07;10;15 – 00;07;34;22
Erin Petersen
Right! And I think that, you know, to go into that emotional intelligence, I mean it honestly, it’s- it’s, it’s actually how you can kind of self-regulate, right? And it I have been in a room with the overly confident individuals. And it’s a complete, almost instant kind of- you can feel your inner self kind of pull back, right?

00;07;34;25 – 00;07;35;11
Kelly Parbs
Sure!

00;07;35;13 – 00;08;52;29
Erin Petersen
And then I have somebody, I’ve- and I’ve also been in the room with very strong men and women, that are, you know, willing to meet me kind of where I’m at, which is always my biggest thing is to meet people where they are and to kind of help them build those sets from there, but to make sure they humanize themselves so that you can kind of, you know, adapt to, to what’s going on in the environment around you. But also, to feel safe. And I think that leaders, leadership, another thing within that leadership role with the self-confidence, it allows your team to feel safe within you, right? And- and feel confident themselves. So if you come, if you go in there with that feeling that I can’t do this or this isn’t going to work, or, you know, you’re going in with that negative thinking, that’s- that’s the perception you’re kind of radiating off and your team’s going to feel that. And so I think also trying to stay positive is, is also a piece of self-confidence as well. It’s not always easy to stay positive in this world, right? We have a lot that goes on around us. So I think positivity and speaking positively even in tough situations is a- is a key component of that, of that self- self-confidence as well.

00;08;53;02 – 00;09;34;14
Kelly Parbs
Well, that’s one of the things I wanted to talk further about with you, Erin. how is it that you can spot a self-confident leader? What characteristics might they have? And one of those, is that they’re able to remain positive even in a very difficult situation. And by the way, that’s also a characteristic of resiliency is if you’re in a really tough situation but still can have a positive mindset, think about how you can grow from the experience. And- and be able to move forward confidently. What other characteristics might we look for in a confident leader?

00;09;34;16 – 00;11;55;00
Erin Petersen
I think that some of the other characteristics I think- I think assertiveness can be taken several different ways, right? And I think assertiveness is the ability to express your thoughts; you talk about your opinions. But also to discuss like your needs and wants as a person or maybe even like what your expectations are without being, overly aggressive, but also not being overly passive aggressive? Because I think passive aggressive, if- this can be a trap, and it’s- and you can feel that people can feel that passive aggressiveness around you. I think that self-acceptance, so knowing yourself and embracing, you know, your own flaws, your own imperfections, allows you to kind of, you know, know your own self-worth. So you like, I go back to that human like, humanizing as a leader, we need to let them know that we’re human, too. Obviously, in a professional standpoint. But this assertiveness as a woman in leadership, I think oftentimes our assertiveness can be taken many different directions. And there’s a way to be strong in your speaking, and there’s a way to be over assertive. And I think that, men and women can work well with each other. I think women having, strong opinions and men having strong opinions is kind of your like, your deliverance of what you’re trying to get through? So it’s a lot of it also comes from how you just how you’re speaking with individuals. So that goes back to that, goes to like communication. But then I think the other thing with self-confidence is, and I learned this during like that, the pandemic, you have to learn to like take risks, right? And, and show that you can, do something that’s out there in your mind. And it might not be what everybody wants to hear in the room, but it’s a risk that you take. And that kind of shows that strength. Even if you fall or you fail, because failing is your first attempt in learning. I think that that’s a- a huge thing when your team can see you take that risk and fight for something that you know that’s worth it for you, allows them that- that encourages them to find that within themselves.

00;11;55;02 – 00;13;13;12
Kelly Parbs
Sure! I love that you brought up the human part of it, that- that’s something I love talking to leaders about as well. I just brought up the example that I’m working with an organization, going through a huge reduction in workforce layoff right now, and I’m working with the group of HR partners. And the theme I hear from them over and over is it’s just so difficult to just remain professional and do my job and talk to these people about their benefits package when inside, I’m crumbling. I’m- I want to cry because their stories are so hard. They’re losing their jobs. It’s impacting their family. And they experienced this, you know, conflict within them. And I try to help them understand that’s because they have red blood running through their veins, right? They are human too!c And the fact that they’re having this reaction, having this very human reaction, is part of what makes them great leaders is because they can empathize with what the employees are going through. And as hard as that is to go through, it really is part of being a good leader.

00;13;13;15 – 00;15;47;11
Erin Petersen
Yeah! And I think, you know, one of the things, that I learned there was a couple different times within my career, I think I was building a shelter, and the second one was obviously during pandemic and hate to keep going back to that. But I think this country learned quite a bit about their leaders during that time of like, unknown, right? And I found myself kind of going back every day, which, you know, takes time to do this in the morning, but to sit back and kind of look back at like past things that I’ve gone- I’ve gone through, it could be personal. It could be for- could be professional. But I think it’s one of those times where you get to kind of- it’s like self-reflection, and you need to go in there with a different mindset, you know, understand the environment that, that you’re walking into. I think self-talk and mindset is a huge thing, and not that I’m saying that we all have to pep talk ourselves to get into our jobs on a daily basis, but especially within like critical situations. It’s important to almost kind of bullet-point what you’re trying to get across, let’s stick to the program, you know, so that you don’t, you know, go off the rails with it. Because in a, in a very hectic situation, it’s very easy for everybody to be a thousand different directions, right? So when I feel a self-confident leader comes in, it’s not that we’re not going through the same thing, and it’s not that we’re not going through a ton of stuff that’s that’s causing us, you know, heartache or confusion or frustration. That’s why they that’s why we’re leaders and we’re in our places, because we almost have to almost put that in like departmental size that or compartmentalize that within our brains and kind of keep that at bay to keep the strength going for the team. I mean, I think that’s that’s such a key thing. And self regulation is huge with self-confidence. You’ve got to be able to gauge yourself. And hey, if you’re having a day? I always say this to people, there is a- there’s a wonderful thing that we call the pause. And it’s, it’s, it’s taking a break and understanding when a person needs a break, right? And even leaders need that. And I think that that’s, that’s got to be, encouraged situation obviously can’t go on for, you know, weeks and months and things like that. But when a leader can- can understand that, maybe it’s time to kind of tap out, maybe let somebody else come in, or maybe this is too close to something that we can’t stay professional with. Understanding that yourself too is huge in leadership and that that comes from that self-confidence piece too, is knowing yourself.

00;15;47;13 – 00;16;12;11
Kelly Parbs
Sure! And- and the power of the pause. I love that sometimes a good leader just needs to know when to stop and take a deep breath and pause and kind of regain their focus. And they prioritize, because there might be ten different things that need attention right now. But a leader is able to pause and prioritize what needs to be done.

00;16;12;14 – 00;17;03;12
Erin Petersen
Yeah, and I think there’s something to be said too about – and it’s like delegating tasks. That’s why- that’s why we’re leaders don’t have to do everything, right? This is why we have teams, leadership teams. You know, people amongst us. But also this is where you start building, the people that you’re working with and allowing them to grow and then giving them that self-confidence, especially during critical time. I mean, obviously there’s- there’s things that we need to do that, that’s why we’re in the positions that we’re in. But I have found, allowing my team to kind of step in and give me idea too because, you know, to go back to, to, to just maybe something that’s going on that we’ve never been through, you kind of need everybody’s, ideas at the table, which builds self-confidence within your team because it allows them to have that voice and, and give their opinion.

00;17;03;14 – 00;17;19;04
Kelly Parbs
And that’s back to communication, which is one of the key factors that you mentioned before, and I just don’t think that can be overstated. The ability to be an excellent communicator, I think is a key factor in being a confident leader.

00;17;19;06 – 00;18;58;25
Erin Petersen
Oh, yeah, I think I mean, honestly, I think we’ve all had- we’ve, in the years that we’ve all been in the workforce, we’ve all had people that had a tough time communicating. And I think learning people’s communication patterns? There’s excellent trainings. one in particular is that D.I.S.C. training, which allows people to learn how to communicate amongst each other. And there are, you know, there are people that have more self-confidence, and then there’s people that have less self-confidence but might be able to- you’ll pause and, and take a longer time to get to the decision where that, you know, those high, confident individuals are fast learners and they talk fast. Sometimes we need to just all learn to slow down and kind of work with each other. So that’s a- that’s a wonderful training, to, to teach people about communication themselves. I took a class in college and- that we watched several different, clips of movies and learning people’s body language. I think that’s another thing that maybe gets lost in the shuffle of it’s not just listening to hear or to hear to listen. You also need to pay attention to people’s body language. You know, someone’s speaking to you and they pull back. That’s showing you that they’re not ready for that conversation or that they’re trying really hard to kind of get through it. So I think as leaders being very, observant of what’s going on, the surroundings around you, you pick up more than you might think. But it’s not just what we hear, it’s we gotta look, stop, look and listen. That’s what I always tell my my teams, is that we need to stop, look, and listen- and pay attention.

00;18;58;28 – 00;19;04;25
Kelly Parbs
In some of the trainings that we do at Empathia, we call that listening between the lines.

00;19;04;27 – 00;20;38;22
Erin Petersen
Well that’s wonderful! And I think that that’s there’s such a, I actually think it gets overlooked quite a bit! I mean, I have, I just recently I had a leader and within my life, and one of the things that I always noticed is that when they were done listening to me, they would look at their phone, they would check their watch, or they would nervously look a different way. And that immediately, I think within myself, it made that self person kind of stop and it kind of put a roadblock up, right? So I, I try really hard even as a mom, like if my son comes in the room, this- this was on Oprah years and years and years ago, when a child walks into a room or a person walks into your office, you don’t want to have that look on your face of like being scared or being sad. You know, you want to try to be uplifting because that energy that you send off is, is a big thing. And I think that as leaders, you can’t- you can’t send off an energy of, of, ignoring what they’re saying or not paying attention. And there are times and I know we’ve all been through this where, you know, as leaders, we hear a lot of stuff, and it is hard sometimes to get through some of those conversations because you want them to be like, okay, let’s wrap this up, right? Like, and and you try to very gracefully find ways to kind of button up that conversation. And it’s not always easy, you know. So I think that’s where, you know, again, we have to stop in our own minds, do that self-reflecting and almost take that ten count. You’re pausing within a conversation, but you’re still paying attention. And that’s where the multitasking of leadership comes through too. So-

00;20;38;22 – 00;21;16;15
Kelly Parbs
Well, absolutely! And it’s also where the great communication comes in! Because if someone walks into your office as a leader or your virtual office, these days, right? In a meeting – the last thing as a leader you want to do is look annoyed. Even though you may have reason to be! But yeah, to be able to competently communicate to that person why maybe this isn’t a good time. Or maybe there have to be boundaries on how long that person can be in your office. But again, doing that from a place of excellent communication and not, hey, you’re bugging me right now.

00;21;16;18 – 00;22;38;05
Erin Petersen
Yeah, that’s usually like where I would I mean, for an example of how I would handle something like that is I would have, one of my team members would often come in my office and immediately I would say, hey, I’ve got about five minutes. I’ve got quite a bit going on today, you know, what can I help you with? Right? And that that goes back to that old Erin Petersen customer service girl that, you know, used to run sales shows and trade shows and travel the country doing that. I think the customer is always right so when I when somebody on my team that comes in, I’m always trying to make sure that I keep that mindset. But then also very much so put that, very fiscal time on it? And I think that when you can express what’s not giving it all details, but say like, hey, I got I got a several little stakes in the fire here, how can I walk you through this? And, or is this something that we could maybe touch based on later on today when I have more time? Trying to do that is much better than having that look of disgust in your face. Or, you know, frustration ’cause immediately your energy is felt and it shuts them down. And you don’t know what that does to somebody, right? Because I know what it does to me. And it’s hard sometimes to kind of crawl back up and kind of build yourself back up for the day, which that’s all part of life. But you may have team members that might be going with going, having something going on outside of work. You know, you don’t know that!

00;22;38;07 – 00;23;34;22
Kelly Parbs
Sure, absolutely! And the last thing that you want to do is create a team that’s afraid to come and talk to you because you are always too busy or always too stressed, or you’re annoyed when they come into your office. So how you come across is so important, and how you communicate with people is so important. Years ago, I came across an article and I liked it because I like bullet points. I like quick, easy to remember bullet points. And it- it was eight phrases that a confident, emotionally intelligent leader use. And one of those eight was how do you like to be communicated with? And I think that’s just such a great one. And you referenced to this earlier – it’s not only how you communicate, but it’s getting to know your team members and what is the most comfortable way for them to communicate, so I just think that was an excellent tip as well.

00;23;34;25 – 00;23;41;29
Erin Petersen
Yeah. And, you know, and I think that, there is- I don’t- do you know who Mel Robbins is? Are you familiar with her work?

00;23;42;06 – 00;23;43;20
Kelly Parbs
Somewhat, yes.

00;23;43;23 – 00;24;51;12
Erin Petersen
I think that there was- I always thought about that when I’d like to go into some of this, like building confidence and- and keeping yourself going. I think when leaders are going through tough times, there’s always- I’m a bullet point person, too. I love fast reads, especially when it’s like, I think key takeaways like that, failing that first attempt and learning has stuck with me forever, right? I’ll fail every day if I have to because I’m still learning. And I think, there’s, there’s a TED talk with Mel Robbins. It’s called the Five Second Rule. I think that’s a wonderful thing about just teaching about self-regulation and self-confidence. I wanted to plug that in there because, like, it’s- it’s a- it’s a great- it’s a great 15-minute TED talk, but also her books are great. And, it kind of teaches people to kind of pull, pull themselves out of that, like stinking thinking, you know? And I think that’s a big thing with leaders too, again, you know, it doesn’t mean that you can’t let your teams know that you’re going through something tough. It’s just how you self-regulate and handle it, you know? On a outside perception is- is huge.

00;24;51;14 – 00;25;11;22
Kelly Parbs
And that doesn’t always come naturally. That is a skill that many people really have to work on and and learn. That brings me to another thing I wanted to talk about, which is what are some of the factors that influence self-confidence in a person?

00;25;11;25 – 00;26;14;03
Erin Petersen
So I think that if you, you know, thinking about maybe past experiences? Things that you’ve may have gone through in your professional life, maybe even in your schooling or in your personal space, thinking about your achievements. And, you know, I, I’m, I am currently, you know, in the, in the job looking for a different, place in my career. And I had to kind of step back and take a look at like my past achievements to remind myself that, like, hey, you’ve gone this far. And I think that’s a big thing. Like, you need to remember, you’ve come this far. You got to kind of keep going, right? Sure! And I think that’s a- that’s a booster. Even- even like your negative experiences can, if you can find a positive within that by saying, like, everything that happens to me is a lesson or, or a learning curve and learning, to kind of get yourself in a mindset of that, like not saying that you can’t be negative because that’s just who we are as human. But I’ve learned to kind of just switch my brain around to think about everything that happens to me is something that I’m learning from, right?

00;26;14;10 – 00;26;29;22
Kelly Parbs
Absolutely! Even if it is, like you said, even if it’s a negative experience, maybe an experience with a negative leader, then you learn on my path to leadership, I know what not to do! We learn from people what to do or what not to do.

00;26;29;27 – 00;29;52;19
Erin Petersen
Yeah, that’s for sure! And and honestly, like criticism is tough as it might be hard to hear sometimes, I think that- and I think that comes with, you know, maturity and age and, and life experience in itself because I think, you know, I think back to the younger generation that I’ve been working with, criticism is tough for them because they’ve- they think that they’re coming from a generation, and this goes right into my next point of your environment, in your upbringing, I came from a large family of hardworking individuals that are police officers, firefighters, people that worked at G.M.. concrete workers, lawyers, doctors. You know, I have a ton of a whole plethora of people that come from my family. But the kind of work ethic that’s tough and hard, right? And I’m not saying that the generations now aren’t hard working individuals. We’re just different! And I think our folks, at least mine, were a little tougher on me, which makes me the mom that I am in my life, but also makes me the leader that I am. And then you’ve got leaders that are always trying to, like, do everything for everybody, right? So overcompensating doesn’t do anything for anyone. It’s kind of hard for them to learn on their own if you’re doing it all for them, right? Right! So I think that that factor of past experience and environment and upbringing is huge because everybody- and we have to remember that, because there are people coming into your office or into your world that didn’t grow up in the house that you did! They may not have had two parents, or maybe they had one parents, or maybe their grandparents helped raise them, or maybe they were in a foster system or in a shelter system! I’ve learned a lot as a social worker that everybody comes from a different walk of life, and I have to be mindful that not everybody was as blessed as I am. Or maybe hasn’t gone through as many losses as I have, so they don’t understand, you know, certain things. So I think that that impacts us to make sure that, you know, that’s a critical piece is to understand, to go back to that understanding where people are and, and stay with them within that, within who they- where they’re at in the world is huge. Another thing, key influence for me is that self-talk and mindset. I think taking time every single day and and it- it for years, it took me a while to figure out that meditation, positive thinking, taking 15 minutes every morning and actually 15 minutes before I go to bed every day to kind of self-reflect, to give myself, here’s what I want to do for the day. From being a mom, from being a leader to a daughter, to, you know, everything else that goes on. All those hats we wear in our lives. And then to do kind of a shut down at the end of the day is big too. Kind of puts everything to rest or kind of keeps things like, I still gotta work on this tomorrow, but allows me to kind of shut that down. So I think that’s huge. And then also, competence and like mastery? So like developing your skills and, and constantly learning. Every day I try to read something new. Every day I try to find something that I didn’t know, even if it’s a bullet point, five second or five minute little videos or a five minute article to read, I always try to kind of keep myself up with what’s going on around me, and I, I think that, understanding that, like, we all have room to grow in this life, even if we’re at that master level in school or if you’re in that leadership position, we all have room to to grow and learn every day.

00;29;52;21 – 00;30;22;06
Kelly Parbs
Stay tuned for part two of my conversation with Erin Petersen on the topic of Self-confidence in Leaders. To hear that episode and other episodes of OnTopic with Empathia, visit our website, www.mpathia.com. Follow us on social media @Empathia, and subscribe to OnTopic with Empathia to hear new episodes as soon as they go live. I’m Kelly Parbs – thanks for listening to OnTopic with Empathia!