Episode 30: Uplifting Suicide Awareness with Mark and Sarah Moss, Part One

00;00;09;02 – 00;01;23;27
Rick Hoaglund
In the United States, the numbers tell us a story about suicide. It’s alarming. According to the U.S. Center for Disease Control and Prevention, in 2023, there were nearly 50,000 recorded suicide deaths among adults in the United States. That’s more than one death for each 11 minutes. Each year, the number continues to rise. Each year, it sets a new record high. Shockingly, for each of these 50,000 tragic deaths, there are several other concerning outcomes. For each death, approximately three individuals required hospitalization due to self-harm. There are eight emergency department visits directly linked to suicide per death. An alarming 38 individuals report having attempted suicide within the last year, and for each of the 50,000 deaths, 265 people have serious considered suicide within the past year. Today we are meeting Mark and Sarah Moss. Before getting married, Sarah and Mark were each affected by suicide, but their individual experiences were on opposite sides of the spectrum. Welcome, Mark and Sarah!

00;01;23;29 – 00;01;27;11
Sarah Moss
Hey, how’s it going? Thank you so much! Thanks for having us!

00;01;27;13 – 00;01;29;02
Mark Moss
Happy to be here! Thank you!

00;01;29;05 – 00;02;03;04
Rick Hoaglund
Thank you! And I know today we’re going to be talking about kind of a difficult subject, and it’s difficult for some of our listeners maybe as well. So I just want to go ahead and put it out there that we’re going to be talking about suicide prevention. We’re going to be talking about a way that- that you’ve become very active in helping with suicide prevention, through- I will just call it an unusual way because it is- it’s really cool, but it’s an unusual way! But I understand that you have- both of you have kind of a strong connection to suicide and what it means.

00;02;03;06 – 00;03;10;26
Sarah Moss
Yeah, you could say that. Mark and I, when we met going on 11, 10 years ago, didn’t even know we had this connection. And he told his story to me before I was comfortable sharing mine with with him. And, you know, when we kind of talked about it and really expanded on that subject, we realized how big of a story that was for both of us. And then at that time in our lives, I was at this point where I was kind of past my- for those who don’t know, obviously no one knows, I’m a suicide survivor. And then Mark lost his grandfather to suicide just a year or two before we met. And I almost felt guilty about the fact that I had tried to take my own life and that I was with someone who was on the other side of suicide and had, you know – my husband’s family is the most amazing group of people you’ll ever meet, and the fact that these people hurt the way that they are now, even still 11, 12 years later, the way that they do. And we can go into this, you know, my story, his story, however you want.

00;03;10;29 – 00;03;17;12
Rick Hoaglund
Let’s start with you, Sarah! You have said that you’re a suicide survivor. Can you tell me some background or whatever you’re comfortable sharing?

00;03;17;13 – 00;07;51;00
Sarah Moss
Yeah, I’m super comfortable with sharing all of it, because if there’s one thing I’ve learned is that through sharing, this is when we really started, reaching- for me, I really found women and young girls said, Wow, I relate to that. I love my family very much. But I did come from a very difficult upbringing. I had a very unstable, unbalanced life and family home. And I always kind of struggled with depression growing up. I didn’t- y’know my parents would say we love you know, I’ve come such a long way and I’m so proud of y’all. You know, they know how far I’ve come. But when I was 12, I had really just made the decision that I just could not be alive anymore. And I used to cut myself and all the things. And and when I was 12, I had just left a band concert because on the outside it looked like I was doing so good. I was in band and I was – and it’s so interesting now because we have a 12 year old and I can’t imagine him thinking or feeling the thoughts that I thought or felt. And so I went home and I went into my mother’s medicine cabinet and I took two bottles of pills. And then I had to go to my dad’s house. And I remember I was in my bathroom at my dad’s house, and I started to vomit. This is- I’m going to give you all the details. And I started to vomit and it was just dry vomit. And that was starting to plug my airways. And I was laying on the bathroom floor. And I was just thinking, what did I do? Do I want to die? I don’t want to die. So my dad started pounding on the door and he says, Your mom found two bottles of pills. Now I have to take you to the hospital. So he busted down the door and he took me to the hospital and he starts driving me to the hospital and he says, You know, I don’t even think you took it. I think you just want attention. And I said, I don’t feel very good. And the last words I heard him say before I passed out was, You’re so full of S-H-I-T Sarah. And then I passed out. And then I started seizing and convulsing and foaming at the mouth because the pills had clogged my airway from the dry throw-up. And when I was unconscious, it was interesting because my mother has a potty mouth and he’s a man of God. So my God, next thing I know, all I do is I hear him. Even though I’m unconscious, I can hear him praying in tongues. And so I woke up. I had to put my stomach all this, you know, all the whole works. I had to drink liquid charcoal to literally a psychiatric ward, all of these wonderful things. And when I when I came to, I saw people surrounding me that I didn’t even think about when I was in the act of wanting to take my own life, I saw my brother, who at the time we were estranged as young as we were. He had kind of already moved in with friends because of our family situation and I saw just people there and I didn’t realize the way it was hurting the people that I love. Because when you get into that such dark state of mind that I think everyone at some point in their lives goes through that, not necessarily thinking I’m going to take my life, but this moment of just cannot think of anyone but self in wanting to take their own life. And so fast forward, I became a mom pretty young at 18 to 19 years old. At that point, I changed my life, which I know there’s a big gap from 12 to 18, but within that time frame I still really battled with depression and drug use and all that. And then I became 18 and became a mom, I really turn my life around. I gave my life to Christ. I stopped doing any form of drugs. I met Mark, my wonderful husband at 22, where we found this really kind of common ground and we just- once we started speaking up about it and talking to people about it, the messages we got were absolutely insane. People from- literally people saying, I was thinking about taking my life today, but I saw y’all’s, you know, Triumph or I saw where y’all came from and it reminded me my life matters. Or we saw people who were saying, like, I have attempted or I lost my mother, I lost my father. Fill in the blanks. So many people, it’s such an unspoken thing. And I want really Mark to touch on his story, because whenever it would come to what we used to do for his family and his loss and how they lost was when we really realized what we were doing never made us feel better. Everything we ever did in memory of, you know, my survival or his loss every time we leave. And I’ll let you touch on that. But we never felt good. And so that’s when we really realized there’s got to be something else. There’s got to be a better solution, better way to reach people, a better way to lift up others. Better way to lift up ourselves, because it is such a big thing, especially now being a mom of a 12 year old.

00;07;51;02 – 00;07;57;12
Rick Hoaglund
What were you thinking at the time? And I don’t want to get too personal at this, but yeah, you just really thinking, I don’t matter?

00;07;57;14 – 00;11;21;03
Sarah Moss
I think the ways of the world, it was just I’m so- I’m an extreme empath. I feel big. I love big. I hate big. I hurt big. And I did have you know, I have parents who love me for sure that never had a doubt that. But I came from a big city and I had a group of friends where our focus was very just drug related, like we were, you know, even at 12 years old, just crazy now that I have a 12 year old, because I remember at 12 I felt like I was maybe 18 and I say 12 and I look at my 12 year old son and he’s like five. That’s like, What do you mean? But uh, I had no stability. My father was pretty much gone and my mom was very heavily dependent on pills. And so I- and my brother was pretty much gone. And then I’d go to school and I found myself with friends who weren’t filling my cup emotionally, mentally, spiritually, physically. All we did was do drugs together and get in fights and shoplift and all this crazy things. And I just got to this point where the world just felt so heavy. There was no light, there was no real friendship, there was no real family. There was nothing that that gave me joy or peace. And at this point, my father tried coming back into my life and creating the stability. And I think it shook so much of everything for me that I just I just did not know how to go on. It was like just a point of where. And I think there was a part of me that it was maybe for attention at that point, because I knew like my- the nurses told me, I’m so glad you took the pills. You took enough like Tylenol or Aleve. I took some form of antibiotic, I think it was. And if it had been something like Tylenol or something like that, that you would not be here for the amount that I took. And so maybe it was a cry for help, as it’s called. Maybe it was a cry of like needing attention. And because whenever I was vomiting, I really did kind of notice or think, I don’t want to die, what did I do? And I wonder how many people do think that who go to kill themselves and they have just all these emotions, but do their aggression like- you hear it so often? You know, I don’t know if you’ve heard the story of the man who jumped off what I believe was the Brooklyn Bridge, and he ended up surviving one of the very few people who actually survived. And he is there’s this whole story now, this testimony. And he speaks to people in schools all over America, and he’s so thankful he didn’t die. I feel like the average person who is a suicide survivor, sadly, I have friends who tried more than once. And to succeed, some people don’t have that. And I think for me, the girl that I think of in particular, she did have chemical imbalances. She did have- because mental awareness goes so above and beyond in so many ways for some people can be as- because for me, I do still struggle with some mental stuff. But for me I also learned how I can deal with it. Yesterday I was in a funk. I went to the gym, I got out. I know what does better. I’m a mom. I never, ever, ever will ever think I’m going to take my life again. But I’d be lying if I said I didn’t still battle with some forms of ups and downs, but I think everyone does, especially us women, Hello! And so- But I know what works for me now. I know who I’m going to find. I’m going to read the word worship music. I’m going to go for a run outside and do what I need to do to give myself a fighting chance to have good mental stability.

00;11;21;05 – 00;11;27;22
Rick Hoaglund
So you’ve become resilient. I mean, that’s- that’s what you’re saying. Like, if you’ve kind of had to learn how to make yourself resilient.

00;11;27;23 – 00;11;30;10
Sarah Moss
Yes! Yes. As we all do!

00;11;30;12 – 00;11;33;28
Rick Hoaglund
Did you do any therapy or anything like that? Anything that, you-

00;11;33;28 – 00;12;01;21
Sarah Moss
You know, I haven’t. And there’s times that I think about it. Even still, my parents and I have come a very long way since I was younger. But I’d be lying if I said I don’t still think even now, like hey, I should – because I’m like, I’m over i!. And then something comes up and then I have a whole offset and I start talking about it. Some work, I’m like, Well, maybe I’m not fully over it! I do think- I do think therapy is on the agenda.

00;12;01;23 – 00;12;03;14
Rick Hoaglund
And maybe Mark is your therapist!

00;12;03;16 – 00;12;26;21
Sarah Moss
And he is honestly though! He’s such a levelheaded, even-keel, just wonderful human. But yeah, plus I’ve just grown so much! I’m 32, it’s been 20 years. That sounds crazy! 20 years. So a lot has changed. There’s a lot of growth, but- and God. God’s been my therapist! That’s helped me tremendously. Really.

00;12;26;24 – 00;12;31;16
Rick Hoaglund
Let’s switch just for a second, Mark? You are on the exact opposite side of this.

00;12;31;18 – 00;15;43;07
Mark Moss
Yeah, 100%. So my upbringing was one of kind of like peace and love and just a happy family. And Sarah can attest to that now that we’re married. But I thought everybody’s parents were together. I thought everybody’s grandparents were together growing up and everybody just loved each other. And, you know, I, I had a you know, we lived in church. We grew up in church. And, you know, had that had that stability and, you know, I had a good family unit. And my sister loved, you know, loved us. I love my sister. I loved my parents. So it’s just complete opposite of of what Sarah- what Sarah did. And so when we met each other, you know, I had to grow in terms of being her not therapist, but being encouraging person to her. And she had to grow in order to understand my side of things from where- kind of where I come from but… Yeah, so completely, completely different in the childhood aspect. Whenever I was in college, my granddad had a, had a knee replacement, which is pretty normal. He was 78 years old and so knees go out, right? So he got a knee replacement and then he had a, an extended stay in the hospital for whatever reason. I’m not sure why, but I think they found something internally that wasn’t just right. So they kept him a few more weeks and so he stayed in there. Few more weeks, came home from the hospital. I think it was the week he came home we were supposed to go- I think he came homne on a Thursday. We were going to go visit him that that Saturday, and… I woke up to a call from my grandma that said that my granddad had passed away. At that point, my dad went over there to their house because they lived about 10 minutes away and we didn’t know anything had happened in terms of suicide at that point. So my dad went over to the house, walked in on my granddad, saw what had happened and saw everything that happened. And so he gave us a call back and he said, your granddad took his own life. And so I’ll never forget just- and it seemed like, it seemed like forever. But I just remember crying on the floor just how- just like there’s no way, because my granddad was probably the happiest person that I’ve ever met in my whole life. And so it was just like complete shock, just world flipped upside down. And as you can tell, it’s just like very real to me still. But I’m… yeah, just complete, complete, utter chaos and shock at that point.

00;15;43;10 – 00;15;58;22
Rick Hoaglund
What does that do to your family? I mean, we’ve talked we’ve talked to Sarah and she can- she can chime in on this, too, because you’re a member of the family. It’s obviously had a lasting impact on you, but- but on others as well, right?

00;15;58;25 – 00;16;03;02
Mark Moss
So my dad still struggles, because he saw everything, right?

00;16;03;04 – 00;16;14;25
Sarah Moss
He did it… in one of the most graphic ways you can do it. I’ll leave it at that. And that’s what he had to walk in on his father. And just the worst way that you could find your father.

00;16;14;28 – 00;17;09;11
Mark Moss
Yeah. And so my dad walked in, saw everything. And it’s, you know, I think it’ll scar him for the rest- probably the rest of his life just and he, you know, he sometimes tells me that he has, you know, different dreams and different things like that that brings him back there. But as for, like, the rest of my family, it was difficult because, like I said, he was- my granddad was one of the happiest people you’ll ever meet. Never had a bad day. Just super positive, you could feel the love of Christ through him, and it was just difficult. We didn’t- we didn’t understand. There was no note, there was there was nothing left over to even think that he would do something like that to himself. So it was just kind of- we questioned everything. We didn’t know… We didn’t know why.

00;17;09;13 – 00;20;58;09
Sarah Moss
And I think the ripple effect on the other side of suicide are my father in law is one of the most amazing, happy, selfless men. But also I see an amazing grown man who now struggles with PTSD. He struggles going into large environments, he has anxiety, to crippling at points. And all of this is past effects from that that has then affected their marriage. And they’re still so in love and so happy. But I see my amazing mother-in-law who was constantly taking care of him in so many ways all these years later. And then my father-in-law has a sister, so granddad’s daughter and her whole family and the way that it has just rippled even to now new people joining the family, myself, my children who see so much hurt. And what we would do is every year and it kind of always aligned with near the time that granddad took his life and they had this walk at LSU and this was put on by the school and it was- it was beautiful in ways that hurt, but hurtful in ways. So it was so many people, hundreds of people would show up and we would do a walk and they would have beads and you would grab one color bead if you were a survivor, one color if you lost a mother, one color if you lost a child, so on and so forth. And we’d all do this walk together, and then at the end you would release balloons to your loved one and have something like ‘In The Arms of an Angel’ and everyone would cry and be so happy. I get their attention and for some people might have been like, uplifting moment, but it was always a sad day, sad moment just where you just see other people who lose kids whose parents and when you see how many people were affected and we left with enough of uplifted and connected, we left feeling more sad and just down because it was in such a heavy way. That’s when Mark had the idea of, Hey, this is around that time. I’m not going to do this walk. I never leave feeling great. We’re both very into fitness. He’s a CrossFit coach, and that’s when Mark decided, when somebody is like, Hey, let’s just do a workout together in the gym. Workout is definitely Mark’s way of releasing endorphins and feeling better and, I think anyone, even if you don’t enjoy working out, when you’re done, you can say, okay, I feel accomplished, I feel better. And that was kind of the beginning of Uplift because he came to me with that news and I said, That’s a great idea, but why don’t we think bigger out this? Because we have so many people that we know were affected by this. Why don’t we take this to the whole gym and see who wants- Because I wanted everybody to be rallied! I didn’t, you know, him and his Crossfit buddies are great, but there’s so many people that love my amazing, supportive husband. So I was like, let’s bring it to the gym environment. Let’s get some values up by all these people. And at this point, I was just thinking, you know, for him to be rallied behind and it was in that moment that all these people came forth that said, Well, I actually just lost my mother a month ago to suicide. Actually, I’m a suicide survivor. Actually, I was just thinking about taking my life. And y’all’s story reminded me I have more to live for. And it has just kind of snowballs out from there because we’re only, what, three years out? This will be our third year. And what started in this one gym in no time at all has just been blown up. We have gone from our gym to gyms all over America. I would see them touch on some of the places too. Even now, partnering up with the games director, you know the words better. The actual Crossfit games programing our workout this year, which is just mind boggling in and of itself since we’ve only been doing this two years! It’s crazy.

00;20;58;11 – 00;21;56;15
Rick Hoaglund
So I have a question for you. First of all, I want to say I’m very sorry for your loss. And, and- I’m really grateful that you guys are sharing your stories. There is a stigma around this, right? And- and and you’re talking today as well as what- and we’re going to we’re going to focus on your your CrossFit workout in just a little bit. But your story today tells me that there was a stigma around talking about this because you even said you didn’t know that each other had this connection until you’d been together a while. And I noticed when you were talking about when you started your program, others were telling you that they were survivors and things. Is it still hush-hush to not talk about if- if I am a suicide survivor, or someone I know has died by suicide? Is there a stigma around that? And I guess my question is, what’s your thoughts on that?

00;21;56;17 – 00;27;27;26
Sarah Moss
I think it comes down to every person at the end of the day, because some people don’t want to talk about it. I do think it’s harder to talk about when you’ve done it yourself, because at that point I feel like people might judge you and think, okay, is this person mentally okay? Or they fill in the blank. I, I never used to tell people that I was a suicide survivor! And now it’s something that doesn’t come up in day to day conversation, but if I hear young girls are struggling with these thoughts, like, hey, babe, let me tell you, you have so much more to live for. I have been through the trenches. I have been through the lowest of lows as we all have, as we all face at some point no matter your story, your background, period. We all have a story. But suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem. I still have lows, but my highs are so high, man, I’m a business owner, have a successful photography company which I just love with amazing people. I have three beautiful children who even on my hardest days, run up to me and give me so much hugs and kisses and love and are just my world. I have a husband who just supports me and is amazing in every way. And his abs, like double bonus. Like, what? I never thought I’d have a husband with abs! Your girl coes not have abs. So that’s what we want people to realize. And the people who have lost people to this, so many of them, I think don’t realize how many people. I don’t think so many people who lost People are afraid to talk about it. But I think they also don’t realize how much of a connection they have with other people out there. They do think that it might be some unspoken thing of like, this is a skeleton in my closet. I have someone in my family or a friend or a husband or wife who has done this and then once we brought it out, like we know people who we know well, who I did not know battled with this and who had gone through something similar and who were in the same kind of boat of have- we’ve been looking for a way to to grow from this to to move from this. I never want to say move on because it’s not something you ever move on from, but it is something that you do need to develop and make it into something that you know, your hardest moments in life are either going to be your tombstones or your stepping stone. And this wasn’t- this wasn’t something that we wanted to define us, but that we wanted to maybe define this in a better way now, make us stronger, make us have more compassion towards others because, you know- it’s one of those things, I was in Nashville the other day, and I was doing a shoot and this girl was trying to catch a stray dog. And I was going to help her. And she just was really- it was weird. She just like, like kind of barked back at me, not the dog, the girl. And our photographer looked at me. She was like, What is her problem? And I’m not going to lie. I- my initial instinct is to be like, Yeah, what is your problem? And then I just kind of like, I had such an attack. Like I don’t know what this person is going through. Mark always says it costs nothing to be kind. It is so easy for us to assume things and expect the worst from people. And I think the people who are the hardest to love are the people who need it the most. The people who are the first to bark back at you or not think like you, you know, politically or whatever way. Those are the people that love you even more because we don’t know what anybody’s going through. There have been so many times in my life where I’ve maybe had a bad day and whatever, and this one person shows me a small amount of kindness, like letting me in traffic or holding the door open for me. And that one bit of compassion just changes my whole day. And that’s something also, it’s not just one workout. This isn’t about just one day, one workout. Let’s all get together. That’s like the cherry on top. We just want people to know, uplift each other always, the people you love, the people you don’t know, the people who are hard to love, uplift them, be there for your neighbor. It is a weird world. Suicide is up tremendously, higher than it has ever been since it has been recorded. And there’s so many reasons that I could go to why I think that’s the case. But all I can know is we have to do our part. You have to be the person to love on the people. You have to be the person to uplift everybody, even when you don’t feel like it, even when we’re having a bad day. Because the second that you stop looking at self and start focusing on others, you yourself still better take this from someone who struggles with depression. Any time I’m in this funk, I’m like, okay, I’m looking at self so much too much and I’m going to take it off of me and off of my thoughts and my needs. And the second I start reporting it to others? Wow, you look at that. I feel amazing! So that’s what this whole thing for us is. Work out together, build endorphins together, be with each other, because there is some serious partnership in having a serious test with somebody. It really is just at the end of it after just like putting in a hard workout, when you’re done? It just really does create this bonding with the person next to you! And so even people who don’t CrossFit or who don’t work out come in, man. We will do scalable- and I’ll walk a walk a lap with you! We don’t have to work- I’d rather, look he is the fit guy! I’m over here just breathing heavey just talking to you! But, but seriously, that’s what this is all about for us. We just we want to know that when we leave this world, what impact have we made? What, what, what impact have we made on our kids? What kind of people are they going to be? We have three kids and bullying is something I think about. And, you know, right now they’re four or five and twelve, and four and five are not hopefully anywhere near that and our 12 year old is a gem of a human. So we are blessed, man. We’re just- we’re blessed!

00;27;27;28 – 00;29;57;10
Rick Hoaglund
How we talk about suicide has changed in the last few years. We’re definitely more honest about the discussion, but we’re also more careful about the words that we use. Experts say that we should be using judgment-free language. When putting together this podcast, a friend of mine reminded me of this. My old way of referring to suicide is damaging, and I didn’t even realize it. Old language is a hard habit to break, but changing our vocabulary is important. While doing some research on this language, I found a useful tool from the Suicide Prevention Alliance. When discussing suicide, just substitute the word cancer for suicide. Then ask yourself, would you say that if you were referring to cancer? For instance, we now say a person died of suicide, or they took their own life instead of saying they committed suicide, we would never say that someone committed cancer. Committed sounds like a judgment call. If you’re using the word committed, it implies you are passing judgment because of a legal or religious conviction. Instead of saying there was an unsuccessful suicide attempt, we should just say that the person is living with thoughts of suicide. It’s not an unsuccessful suicide attempt, but rather just a suicide attempt. By changing the words, we can change attitudes and stereotypes. If you know someone who may have suicidal thoughts, speak to them, then get help. Do not keep it to yourself, even if the person asked you to do so. If you’re considering suicide, call or text 988 in the United States, If you’re not in the United States, there is help available around the globe. Call your local suicide prevention hotline, no matter where you are, speak to your family or friends, and seek professional help. If you’ve tried to seriously hurt yourself, go to the emergency room. You are important, you are valued, and you are needed. In our next episode, we’ll continue our conversation with Mark and Sarah Moss about their Uplift project, which promotes suicide awareness. You’ve been listening to OnTopic with Empathia. For other episodes, please visit our website, www.Empathia.com Follow us on social media @Empathia, and subscribe to OnTopic with Empathia to hear new episodes as soon as they go live. I’m Rick Hoaglund – thanks for listening to OnTopic with Empathia!