Episode 51: Stopping the Stigma with Adam Meyers, Part Two

00;00;08;09 – 00;01;15;22
Kelly Parbs
Welcome to part two of my conversation with Adam Meyers. Adam is a police chief who unfortunately experienced post-traumatic stress disorder after being involved in a deadly shooting. In episode one, Adam shared his experience and described how his mental health spiraled out of control. Adam feels passionate about stopping the stigma attached to seeking help for mental health, and I look forward to continuing our conversation today. So really, back to the importance of that support system. And support system, both personally and at work. Can you think of, you mentioned your boss and a statement that he made that you, you actually framed and I, I’m interested in knowing exactly what that said, but I’m also interested in knowing what kind of support did you get both personally and at work, and how did that impact you?

00;01;15;24 – 00;03;12;12
Adam Meyers
Well, I was cleared from the shooting in less than a month and went back to work about a month later, and I went back in very slowly, I went back to work and wore my uniform and started doing more administrative stuff, kind of just slowly get back into the swing of things. And I remember I was nervous, I was worried about how people were going to judge me, the people that I worked with for so many years. And I remember standing in the breakout room at the police department, and there was an officer rinsing off his dishes from lunch or from a snack he was having or whatever, and he goes, “hey, how’s it going?” And I’m like, “yeah, I’m doing all right. I’m just worried people are going to judge me.” And he goes, “we don’t judge you, Adam. We know who you are. We know that you did the right thing,” and my chief at the time, the same chief who made that comment to the media. There were many times that I went into his office and I said, “Chief, I can’t be here. I really can’t explain it, but I can’t be here.” And he said, “that’s okay, go home.” He didn’t roll his eyes and say, “okay, I’ll figure out the schedule, just go home.” You know, I mean, instantly, “it’s okay, go home. We’ll take care of things.” And that kind of support is great. I remember one time I’m driving into work really feeling good, thinking I’m going to catch a bunch of speeders. I’m going to, you know, have a really good day. And I walked in and I grabbed something we call our daily sheet, which we log everything that we do. And there was one of our clerks that came up and said, “hey, Adam, how’s it going?” And I instantly broke down and started crying. I have no idea why. I was just I have no idea. And they allowed me to go home and and it was okay. But over time, you know, when I mentioned lying about certain things to get out of work, over time I felt like I was just running out of excuses when I could have just said, “you know what? I can’t be here. It’s not safe for me to be here. I don’t know what’s going on,” and I’m sure it would have been okay, but I felt like I had to make up other excuses and yeah, it was just a struggle.

00;03;12;14 – 00;04;44;03
Kelly Parbs
When you said catch speeders, you reminded me of of something I’d like to share about my recent speeding ticket driving home from Minnesota, where my my daughter and five of my grandchildren live, and my great son in law when I was training to help police officers. One of the things that I learned that the officer who was helping train me had this friend in his office, and it was of a shepherd and a lot of sheep. And he explained to me that police officers see themselves as guardians of the sheep. And when, and tell me if I get this wrong, but when they stop people for speeding, they’re looking for the wolf. But part of what they’re doing is looking for the wolf so that they can protect the sheep. And so a few weeks ago, when I got pulled over for speeding on my way home from Minnesota, that’s what I thought about, like, he, he’s looking for the wolf. And I know I’m not the wolf, but I’m so grateful that he’s looking for the wolf in, in what he does. And so I got my ticket, and then I thanked him, you know, for doing his job. And I’m not entirely sure why I even just shared that story, but I think it’s all, it’s important for us to know that people like you, Adam, are out there really, genuinely trying to protect us, and I’m grateful for that.

00;04;44;06 – 00;05;45;28
Adam Meyers
Thank you for sharing that, Kelly. It, it’s the truth. First responders, I’ll speak from a police officer’s point of view, we, we do. We want to go out there. We want to protect the community. We want to keep people safe. We want to help people. You know, with my critical incident, I didn’t wake up thinking, oh, I hope I go to work and shoot somebody. You know, when I became a police officer in 2001, I knew that was a possibility. But, you know, many police officers go through their entire career without going through that. And I just never thought that was going to happen. When I was working on that retail theft report at the police department, and I was responding to Walmart, I thought I was going to arrive and walk in and say, “hey, you’re unwanted. You need to leave,” and escort the person out and everything would be okay. We do that all the time. I never expected that I was going to shoot somebody and that’s what police officers do. We want to help people. We want to protect people, we’re genuinely good people that want to help.

00;05;46;00 – 00;06;19;27
Kelly Parbs
I’m thinking about your life before the shooting, and if you think about your own self-care and your own mental health before all of that happened, do you think you could have been better braced to deal with that situation? Looking back, or maybe giving advice to new police officers who have their whole career ahead of them? What advice might you have for them to be as prepared as you can be?

00;06;20;00 – 00;07;47;01
Adam Meyers
I do, I think it’s very important to prepare police officers for the profession. You know, the real world profession, when you’re in the police academy, you’re trained, you’re taught certain things, and that’s all important. I mean, I remember watching video of me in my critical incident, and a lot of it I don’t remember. I look at the video and I think, yeah, that’s me. I’m doing what I was trained to do. But it’s difficult to train people of how they’re going to respond or react to the aftermath of a critical incident. I think what we need to do is we need to begin reaching out to those people who want to be a police officer in the police academies, in colleges, and also during in-service. Have police officers, have first responders with real life experiences in service attend the police academy and say, “hey, this is what happened to me. This is the real deal. This isn’t what you see on TV. This isn’t story hour at the bar or when you’re playing cards with, with your buddies. This is what really happened to me and what can happen.” So it’s important to teach that because maybe they won’t get involved in a shooting, or maybe they won’t get involved in a critical incident, but they may know somebody who has or who will, and then they can support that person and they can understand more of what they might be going through. It’s important to do that right away, right away, and not wait until after, because then you’re just playing catch up and.

00;07;47;02 – 00;07;47;16
Kelly Parbs
Right.

00;07;47;17 – 00;08;16;06
Adam Meyers
And doing what you think is best at the time. But I mean, you’re trying to address something. Maybe you’re going in blindly because you have no idea what’s going on, and it’s important to reach out, like I said, to the police academies, to in-service to colleges and anybody who’s thinking about being a first responder, to listen to first responders who have been through critical incidents. So they have a general idea as to what could possibly happen.

00;08;16;08 – 00;09;12;04
Kelly Parbs
Well, and also what I’m getting at with that question is this idea that you can’t pour from an empty cup, you can’t go into this intense job unless your mental health is in a really good place to start with, in my opinion, anyway. And I’m wondering if police officers, when they’re starting, think about that, or are trained to be self aware in terms of what their self-care strategies are. Are they, you know, eating right and staying hydrated and exercising and aware of their support system and all of those self-care things that you really have to work hard to learn after your critical incident. But in my opinion, maybe you would have been better braced had you thought about all of those things as a, as a new police officer.

00;09;12;06 – 00;10;16;28
Adam Meyers
I agree, I think first responders and police officers know what they need to do and what they should do. It’s just difficult, you know, when you’re working the job and you’re working different schedules and then you have to go to, you know, let’s say you work third shift and then you have to go to training all day during the day, the following day. And you’re, you’re grabbing a bite to eat at fast food, and you don’t have time to exercise and stuff like that. You know, it takes a toll on your body physically and mentally. We are taught that in the police academy, and we are taught that during in-services. But it’s, it’s easier said than done. I mean, we know what we should do and it’s not always easy to do it, you know, in a lot of ways to relieve stresses, having a drink or two and talk about work. But it is, it’s, I remember shortly after my critical incident, the therapist that I was seeing says, you know, healthy and healthy out, you know, eat healthy, don’t drink. Did I listen? Absolutely not. And I wish I would have, because I knew what they were talking about. But, you know, sometimes when we’re in those situations, we think, yeah, I know what’s best for me. And they don’t know what they’re talking about, but they really do. It’s difficult to listen to somebody, especially if you don’t know them. But it’s important to do that.

00;10;17;00 – 00;10;32;09
Kelly Parbs
That’s the kind of wisdom you can impart as a veteran, to the newer police officers by sharing that like, hey, you really do have to listen to all of that stuff about self-care and mental health going into this job.

00;10;32;11 – 00;11;13;16
Adam Meyers
Absolutely. And, you know, what I did is before my critical incident, I used to walk a lot. I was eating healthier. I was more physically fit than I was after my critical incident, because after my critical incident, it was poor coping. It was a lot of alcohol. It was a lot of fast food. Believe it or not, eating a pizza or eating a couple slices of pizza now is triggering for me because I’m an emotional eater. So what I would do is I order a pizza and I would eat the entire thing, and that’s not healthy. And then I would stop walking. I would stop exercising. I want to say I gained probably about 60 pounds. That’s because I was depressed and I wasn’t doing what I was supposed to be doing, you know.

00;11;13;19 – 00;11;28;10
Kelly Parbs
And then you feel more depressed. Right. Alcohol is a depressant. So you’re putting a depressant into a depressed person and, you know, gaining weight and then all the emotions and depression that can go with that. And it’s just this, this doom loop, as my son calls it.

00;11;28;12 – 00;11;52;04
Adam Meyers
Right? And and it doesn’t go away. You gain weight, then your uniform is tighter, your bulletproof vest is tighter, you feel uncomfortable, you’re not as productive at work. I mean, it’s a, it’s the domino theory. I mean, everything is connected one way or another. But if you take care of yourself physically and mentally, you know you have a better chance of surviving and feeling better and fighting depression and anxiety and stress.

00;11;52;07 – 00;12;05;06
Kelly Parbs
So I’m, I’m interested. What are the things that you do now that are healthier to take care of yourself and have people in your life noticed, both personally and professionally?

00;12;05;08 – 00;13;14;29
Adam Meyers
They have noticed. I walk almost every day. I have different routes that I walk. I mean some days, just depending on the time I have, I can either walk a three mile, a five mile or a ten mile walk. I hydrate myself, I eat healthy, I still have pizza every now and then because that’s my favorite food. But I don’t eat it as much and I pay attention to what my triggers are, and I’m mindful of that and, and learn from that so I can continue to be healthy. I enjoy the outdoors. I’m not a hunter. I’m not a fisherman. But I like hiking. I like being out and about, spending time with my family and spending time with my two daughters and just putting myself first as much as I possibly can and having boundaries. You know, I’m the kind of person that sometimes I just need alone time and there could be all kinds of stuff going on, family and friends, having events, and I just get the feeling that I just need to stay at home and have some alone time, some quiet time. I do that and I try not to feel guilty about it. I just set those boundaries and you know, I can spend a lot of time alone, but I’m not lonely and doing that, it really helps my physical health and my mental health.

00;13;15;01 – 00;13;23;16
Kelly Parbs
Well, what kinds of things have your daughters or your colleagues said to you that tells you they notice the difference?

00;13;23;19 – 00;15;43;00
Adam Meyers
They’ve noticed my weight gain. They’ve noticed my personality. I’ve always been a jokester. I’m known to walk around the police department and make up my own goofy songs and make up jokes and stuff like that, and they just see the old Adam back. And sure, I’m still guarded at times, and sometimes I’m quiet. And when I’m quiet, people think something’s wrong, but they they ask me, are you doing okay? And I tell them what I’m going through, and I’m very open and honest about my feelings, and they like me better now because I put myself first. And, you know, what happened is after I was terminated, I took a year off. I never thought I was going to be a police officer again. Quite frankly, I didn’t even know what I wanted to be because of what I went through. And I struggled finding a job. I struggled paying the bills. I actually had to file bankruptcy because I was just struggling financially. And I got back on medicine. I got back to seeing a therapist weekly, and once I got better and healthier, I thought to myself, you know what? I love being a police officer and I still have a lot of experience and I still have a lot of fuel in the tank, a lot of training. I want to be there for other police officers. I want to be a mentor. I want to help other police officers. I want to be a cop again. So I started applying, and there was a two week period where three police departments offered me conditional offers of employment. So I got to choose from the police departments I wanted to work for, and I, I chose one and was hired. And shortly later I was promoted to captain of police. And my chief now is so supportive, he’s amazing. He told me he supports me doing podcasts, he supports me public speaking, and if I want to, I can even wear my uniform. And I was, I’m just surprised because, the support I’m getting now, I know it’s there. I’m not thinking, yeah, he’s only saying that because, you know, he’s the chief and it’s going to make him look bad if he doesn’t support me. But no, he genuinely cares about his officers. He genuinely cares about my mental health. The police department’s, you know, mental health. And I know that he supports me and it’s great.

00;15;43;03 – 00;16;10;25
Kelly Parbs
That’s great to hear, too. And, you know, the whole reason I found you was because I was scrolling and looking for information on stopping the stigma in terms of reaching out for mental health. And then I found your website, which is called Stop the Threat, Stop the Stigma. Can you tell us about how that started and what the outcome of that has been?

00;16;10;27 – 00;17;20;29
Adam Meyers
It’s been great. It’s, it’s become even bigger than I expected. In 2019, three years after my critical incident, I began speaking about my mental health and what I went through. And I established Stop the Threat, Stop the Stigma, in hopes to inspire other police officers and first responders to speak about their mental health and to support others who may be struggling with mental health. And it’s been, it’s just been great. I’ve reached out to people all across the world. I’ve spoken with people in Italy and France and the United Kingdom, Canada, all across the United States. I get messages, phone calls from people, and it made me realize that it doesn’t matter where you live in this world, that there’s so many people that are going through what you’re going through and that you’re not alone. You know, I remember talking to a police officer who, who was struggling in Australia, and him and I were talking, and it was kind of cool because of their accent and everything like that. But, you know, when we’re talking, he was, it was like a carbon copy of what I went through. And I’m thinking, and this guy is in Australia.

00;17;21;01 – 00;17;21;13
Kelly Parbs
Across the world.

00;17;21;13 – 00;17;27;02
Adam Meyers
It just goes to show that you’re not alone and it’s okay to talk about your mental health.

00;17;27;05 – 00;18;29;18
Kelly Parbs
That’s so inspiring, Adam, you are really making a difference. And you know that’s what resilient people do. They make something good from something bad. And that’s not to say that they dismiss the bad or they’re in denial or they’re being Pollyannas, but they, they acknowledge it, they work through it and then look for something positive to bring from it. I don’t know if you listened to my podcast that I did with Dr. Buck Blodgett, but he created the Love Is Greater Than Hate project after his daughter was raped and murdered by her friend. And that’s another example of bringing something good from something just so terrible. And of course, I wish that that wouldn’t have happened in his life. And I wish you wouldn’t have gone through this deadly incident in the first place. But you did. And now you’re helping and encouraging others because of it. And I’m really inspired by that. And I hope our listeners are too.

00;18;29;20 – 00;18;52;23
Adam Meyers
Yeah, I, I know Buck, I met him and, it is tragic what his family has gone through and what his daughter went through. But I remember I received a mental health award and he was there, and he approached me and shook my hand and told me what I was doing was great. And that he supported me. He’s a great man. And what he’s doing, he’s doing God’s work. He’s doing really great work and I really admire him.

00;18;52;25 – 00;19;22;09
Kelly Parbs
Me too. I’m noticing the time here, and I just have a couple other things I want to quickly make sure we do. And one of those is, I’m wondering if you’ve ever noticed specific signs in another office or that told you they’re in trouble, or they, they need some help. And I’m wondering if you can tell our listeners, what can we watch for in first responders that might help us know that they could use some support?

00;19;22;09 – 00;20;55;27
Adam Meyers
I have, I mean, when I was still a police officer up north, there was an officer that would come into work a little bit early and come to my office and, and ask me if he could talk to me about some things and some struggles he was going through. And I was like, “yeah, sure, come on in and shut the door”. And that’s when I was a detective. And he would speak with me about certain things, like he had a rough weekend and he did this and that, and, and I just wanted to reassure him that that things were going to get better. But, you know, one of the things I did notice is, you know, maybe his uniform wasn’t as squared away as normal. And, his productivity as, you know, with making arrests or writing tickets have gone down. And, you know, when you know somebody who’s a real go getter and goes out there and who really does great things and is productive, and then all of a sudden they’re kind of in their squad car and they’re just parking and kind of hiding and not getting involved, that could be a sign. That could not only be a sign was struggles at work, but that could be a sign with something going on in his personal life. So it’s okay to reach out to that person and say, “hey, I don’t know what’s going on, but I noticed some, some things are going on. I’m here if you need me.” And I just let them know that you’re, you’re there and you support them. And sometimes it’s difficult for them to open up because you are a fellow police officer or a fellow first responder, and they are concerned about, you telling, you know, the supervision or your chief or, but it’s so important to reach out and let them know that you notice it and that you’re there for them to help them as they need help.

00;20;55;29 – 00;21;31;22
Kelly Parbs
Absolutely. And as counselors, we look for things like changes in sleep. You know, “man, I just can’t sleep lately”. Changes in appetite. “I feel like I can’t eat or I’m eating too much.” Changes in mood and behavior. Some of those things that we, we talked about before and like you said, don’t just notice it but say something. You know, “I notice you’ve been behaving differently” or “your office door is always closed” or whatever it might be, because you’re telling them you see them and you notice them and you care about them.

00;21;31;25 – 00;22;05;07
Adam Meyers
And if you’re a police department or your first responder agency has an employee assistance program, you know, employers are experiencing an increased demand for mental health and substance abuse and crisis support services all over the place today. And I believe that people matter most during the crisis, and it’s important to help people recover from whatever they’re going through. So, you know, a good EAP helps to minimize the lasting effects of a crisis. And by you just saying that, you’re there for them. And here are some resources that may help you. That’s really important.

00;22;05;09 – 00;22;26;23
Kelly Parbs
Absolutely. Adam, you mentioned that you’re a certified peer support specialist. I’m interested in knowing a little bit more about that. And I’m also interested in knowing if you were ever on the other end of of being supported by a peer support specialist.

00;22;26;26 – 00;23;34;21
Adam Meyers
I am a certified peer specialist in the state of Wisconsin, and as a peer specialist, I try to meet people where they’re at and let them know that they’re not alone and that they have support. With my real life experiences as a police officer. And I remember I began my career in 2001 and several years after I was assisting with a triple homicide. Seven people were shot, three were killed. And I want to say maybe about a week later, one of the police officer support team members came around and, I was doing okay. I wasn’t affected, I wasn’t losing any sleep, I wasn’t poorly coping. But I was a young officer and I thought about that. And I thought to myself, you know what? Even if I was struggling, there was no way I was going to tell this veteran officer that I was struggling. This was my dream job in my hometown, and I finally became a cop. If I was struggling, I wouldn’t have said I was. But it’s important that if you’re struggling to reach out for help. But, you know, thinking over, I wouldn’t have done that.

00;23;34;23 – 00;24;26;13
Kelly Parbs
Sure. You know, I can relate to that. I’m thinking about a job I did where a young officer died in the line of duty, and I went to support his, his team of officers. And my experience was that the young officers, and they had just been on the job a short period of time, they were far less likely to reach out to me or to respond or use the support that was available from me, than the more veteran officers. And hearing you say that and looking back at that, and maybe that’s what they were experiencing, like, I’m still trying to build my reputation, and I’m afraid to admit that this was really hard for me.

00;24;26;15 – 00;25;12;10
Adam Meyers
Yeah, I, I believe that. I believe that as a veteran police officer, it is your responsibility to mentor young, newer police officers and, and not only let them know that if they’re struggling, that it’s okay to reach out for help, but you can’t only tell them that you have to prove it, you have to show them that it’s okay. I mean, saying one thing and doing another is is completely different. And like I said, as a young officer, when that member of the police officer support team came around, I was doing okay. But if I hadn’t been I wouldn’t have told him that I was struggling because I was in my dream job. I loved being a cop. I wasn’t going to lose everything. So it is important for veteran officers to be there for younger officers and let them know that it’s okay to get help if you need it.

00;25;12;13 – 00;25;56;11
Kelly Parbs
And you know that, thinking back to that particular situation, which was years ago, that ended up being really the secret sauce, those young officers really didn’t want to talk to me. But once the veteran officers stepped up and kind of took them under their wing and said, you can talk with me or I’m going to role model for you, a veteran officer who has reached out for help, they responded. The younger officers responded much, much better to them. So that speaks to what you’re saying. The importance of veteran officers being good role models in terms of stopping the stigma, right, and reaching out for mental health support.

00;25;56;14 – 00;26;06;10
Adam Meyers
Exactly. If you’re a veteran officer, talk the talk and walk the walk. You know, let them know it’s okay to talk about your mental health and get help if you need it.

00;26;06;12 – 00;26;23;02
Kelly Parbs
For sure. Adam, I always like to wrap things up with some tangible, practical tips for our listeners. Is there anything that comes to mind for you that you would like to share with our listeners that you would like for them to take away from this discussion?

00;26;23;04 – 00;27;42;15
Adam Meyers
I just think that everybody should know that it’s okay to talk about your mental health, that you’re not alone. You don’t have to suffer in silence. You know, public safety professionals who openly seek help for their mental health often face personal or professional criticism. They could be discriminated against and sometimes even terminated, but that shouldn’t get in the way of getting help and taking care of yourself. You can always find another job. Even though you may love being a cop or a firefighter or a paramedic, you can always find another job. You know that shouldn’t deter anyone from getting help, but it does. You know, mental illness is not a flaw in your character or a sign of personal or professional weakness, but that stigma, people think it is. So I just want people to know it’s okay to talk about your mental health. You’re not alone. Don’t suffer in silence. I mean I, my critical incident was in 2016 and it’s been 8 or 9 years since then, and I still see a therapist. I still wake up in the morning and pop a pill and it works well for me. And if it’s helping me, I’m going to continue to do it. It’s okay. It’s not selfish. It’s okay to put yourself first and take care of yourself. If you want to continue in your career, you need to do that. It’s healthy and it’s okay to talk about your mental health.

00;27;42;18 – 00;29;27;19
Kelly Parbs
Thank you. Thank you so much for being so honest and transparent and sharing things that maybe wouldn’t be easy for everyone to share, but you were courageous and you did, and I’m grateful for that. And Adam, I would like to end with a quote that I took from your website and that is, “remember, mental illness is not a medical disorder and not a character flaw or a sign of weakness”. Thank you for your time today, and thanks to our listeners for spending this hour with us. First responders are at high risk for mental health issues like depression, PTSD, and suicide. They are often exposed to intense stressors like violent crime, deaths, traffic accident scenes, and much more. But there is good news. Counseling, along with positive self-care and peer support can be life changing. These services are readily available. My hope today is that our conversation with Adam Meyers helped stop the stigma related to seeking help. Please visit his website stopthethreatstopthestigma.org for more information and resources and to hear more episodes of OnTopic with Empathia, visit our website empathia.com. Follow us on social media @empathia and subscribe to OnTopic with Empathia to hear new episodes as soon as they go live. I’m your host, Kelly Parbs. Thank you for listening to OnTopic with Empathia.