Episode 49: On Holiday Stress with Christina Eggebeen

00;00;07;24 – 00;01;04;27
Rick Hoaglund
Today we’re diving into a topic that resonates with so many of us. Holiday stress. While the holiday season is filled with joy, family gatherings and celebrations, it can also bring along pressure, financial strain, travel headaches, and the challenge of balancing all of it. In this episode, we’ll be discussing practical strategies for managing stress during the holidays so that you can focus on what really matters. Enjoying the season and caring for your well-being. Whether you’re feeling stretched thin or just want a few tips to make the season smoother, we’re here to help you. We’re joined today by Christina Eggebean. She’s a longtime counselor with Empathia’s Employee Assistance Program, and it’s her expertise that helps employees from all across all kinds of companies deal with the stresses of life, including the holidays. Thanks, Tina. Thanks for being with me on the podcast today.

00;01;04;29 – 00;01;06;07
Christina Eggebeen
You’re very welcome.

00;01;06;09 – 00;01;28;23
Rick Hoaglund
And I appreciate you joining us. I know that holidays are around the corner, so let’s talk a little bit about, you know, it’s exciting. It’s, it’s a time of joy for a lot of people, but not for everyone, right? So what kind of, what kind of holiday anxieties are there? What do people have that’s going on with them around the holidays?

00;01;28;26 – 00;02;24;24
Christina Eggebeen
Well, I think one of the, the biggest things I want to point out even before we get started is not everybody is celebrating holidays while we are. Or forgive me, I am the traditional Christian holidays. I had done a training recently about holiday stress, and Emily Hammer has a quote I think is worth touching on. Says “as winter break begins, many students have Christmas on the brain. But students who are Jewish, Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu or other faiths don’t have the same experience.” So part of the anxiety is, you know, if you have friends who are Jewish or they practice Buddhism and you don’t know that, you don’t want to make an assumption. So happy holidays might be okay. Merry Christmas, not very neutral. So people want to get it right. And this is, this is important to know because we as counselors want to make sure that our clients know we value diversity.

00;02;24;26 – 00;02;44;14
Rick Hoaglund
So tell me about, what are some of the feelings that people are experiencing? I mean, whether you’re, honestly, any of those religions, if there is a holiday during this time of the year, what do, what do people experience? Like you talked a little bit about, you know, joy, but that doesn’t for everybody, right? I mean, there are people that are not joyful about this.

00;02;44;17 – 00;02;56;18
Christina Eggebeen
Correct. And the presentation I had done for the staff here at Empathia really did kind of focus on the coping with difficult dynamics at any social situation, including the holidays.

00;02;56;20 – 00;03;03;13
Rick Hoaglund
Is it pre holiday? post holiday? Is it just all of it?

00;03;03;15 – 00;03;55;26
Christina Eggebeen
Honestly I think it’s all of it. The holiday stress changing in work schedules different people taking vacations less staffing. I think not having enough money to buy Christmas gifts for your loved ones. These are stressful things. And it’s important to note, you know, big things like, even like, weddings can be a beautiful, powerful ceremony across all cultures, and religions. But there’s still stress. It’s just different stress. So I think before, the anticipatory stress, the stress of making it perfect, you know, everybody, there’s some, there’s a group of us, Type-A personality, want everything to go. We open the gifts at a certain time. You know, we eat the prime rib at a certain time, and everything’s got to come together all at once, and it’s hard to pivot for them and adjust if it doesn’t go the way they want.

00;03;55;29 – 00;04;23;04
Rick Hoaglund
So what is your recommendation for, let’s just say that I have a family member that is a Type-A personality. And I do just thought I’d bring that up. So it has to be just so. How do you relieve, I mean, it even causes me stress, to be honest with you. How do I deal with that? Is there, is there a way I should be talking to that person? Is there? Do I just ignore it? What do you do?

00;04;23;06 – 00;04;40;13
Christina Eggebeen
I think it’s important to acknowledge that because somebody else is going to be monopolizing. Just surrender control yourself. Because in that you’re modeling for that person the surrender of the control.

00;04;40;16 – 00;04;49;29
Rick Hoaglund
So kind of just going along with that, kind of like just saying, okay, we’ll do whatever you want sort of thing. As long, as long as it’s within reason, right?

00;04;50;05 – 00;05;01;21
Christina Eggebeen
Correct. We’re not going to allow people to be abusive to us, but they can pick, you know, which potatoes they want. Sweet potatoes or regular potatoes and who sits where.

00;05;01;24 – 00;05;29;07
Rick Hoaglund
That’s a big one, actually, for people, who sits where? So tell me about how can, I mean, you’ve got all these different personalities. I would guess, and I’m just making a guess. So tell me if I’m wrong, that some holiday stress is because you’ve got families coming together, all these personalities coming together. There may be some people you don’t agree with for whatever reason, and maybe they don’t agree with you for whatever reason. What’s your advice on that?

00;05;29;10 – 00;05;54;27
Christina Eggebeen
I think it’s important to realize that when you go into an event, it’s not about you. Instead, reframe it and think about what can I bring to this event? I have a good friend who calls any event, such as the holidays or whatever it might be, as a, as a casual observation. So when you say, “what are you doing this week?” “I’m going to be attending a casual observation”.

00;05;54;29 – 00;06;06;23
Rick Hoaglund
So, so that person is basically setting an expectation to themselves, right? Like this, I am not going to be a main character in this. I’m going to be an observer.

00;06;06;26 – 00;06;14;07
Christina Eggebeen
Exactly. You’re not bringing conflict. You’re bringing enrichment and gratitude and a positive attitude.

00;06;14;10 – 00;06;46;14
Rick Hoaglund
I think that’s good. What, how do you set boundaries? Because that is an issue I would think at, well, any of, any family gathering, any holiday, any, any reunion, anything like that. But, but I think it’s especially difficult. I mean, I, I think most people can set boundaries with people they don’t know or people at work. It’s much more difficult in a family situation. People revert back to being children even if they’re 60 years old. I mean, if, if, if their parents are there, how do you set boundaries in a case like that?

00;06;46;16 – 00;08;31;02
Christina Eggebeen
Well, I just want to visit. We do learn scripts about life from the people who we grow up with, and it’s important to have insight into those scripts. And I used to teach at a technical college, Waukesha Technical College, and there was a class called Family Systems and the textbook, if you will, was a book called Genograms, written by Emily Marlin. And we had the students come up with, in essence, a family tree, only they drew squiggly lines through the relationship between themselves and the person who was highly, conflictual, if you will, at, you know, at the, at the event. And you just, seeing it visually can help you understand why you view the world the way you do. And also why you, when you leave the holiday event, you have to rewire your brain and remind yourself, I am not this family script. You know, this is who I am. Just because your family sees you one way, you know, whether that be like they think you’re the all successful, idealized person and they put you on a pedestal, that’s a lot of pressure. So coming back to reality after the stress, I think is, is also very important because you’re typically going back to work as well. So now you’ve got you’re exhausted. There’s different dynamics that you’ve managed by maintaining boundaries. And now you’re at work. And a lot of your coworkers may have either had a really awesome holiday or not so great.

00;08;31;04 – 00;08;45;16
Rick Hoaglund
So what do you do if you come away from your holiday and you’re feeling blue? Maybe let’s say that it didn’t go as well with your family as you thought. What kind of self-care would you recommend for someone like that?

00;08;45;19 – 00;09;34;16
Christina Eggebeen
Oh, I think even for a fancy vacation to, Tropical Island, is the same as if you go into holiday stress. You really, really, really need to do good self-care during and after, get a lot of rest. Give yourself permission to be tired. Take the naps you need. Hydrate. Nourish. Our bodies cannot thrive. Our brains, in order to problem solve and think about creative solutions it needs to be nourished and hydrated. And also connection, who do you connect with? Do you have a higher power? Do you have a circle of friends who you can get together with and just debrief? It’s really important to take care of you because that’s the foundation of self-actualization.

00;09;34;18 – 00;10;16;26
Rick Hoaglund
How do you handle the financial stress? And I don’t mean that as you, I’m talking about how do people handle the financial stress of holidays? I mean, it has to be. When I was younger, I was really worried about not being able to afford Christmas presents or Hanukkah presents for my Jewish friends. I was always worried about that. And as I’ve gotten older, a little bit of that has gone away. But then I start worrying about, am I, am I either overdoing it or what is someone giving me, something that’s worth more than mine? I start thinking that way, and I know that’s not the meaning of the holiday. It’s not. But, but how do I, how do I get through this?

00;10;16;28 – 00;11;08;21
Christina Eggebeen
Well, I had a conversation with my dad today. It’s traditional, and that’s what I referenced earlier, to have the deviled eggs and the shrimp and the prime rib, and it’s a big deal. And, you know, I said to my dad today, I it’s all about seeing you and being with you, and you can serve cereal for all I care, and my family’s great that way. They, we could do, DIY craft present pass around, and that would be fine. It’s really about being together as a family. So be creative with your family. Send an email out, send a group text. You know, I, I’m wondering if we could do, a craft Christmas this year or do a new family tradition.

00;11;08;23 – 00;11;27;07
Rick Hoaglund
So that would work for someone that say, suddenly, for some reason, can’t do the gifting, because they can’t afford it, even if it’s, like, at the last minute, just letting your family know, hey, I’m going to do x, y, z this year. And I think understanding that the family members will like it.

00;11;27;10 – 00;11;42;28
Christina Eggebeen
And that and you can also inform people, this is what I’ll be doing this year. You know, you don’t need permission to do what you need to do for good self-care and stability, and your family members will want that ultimately for you.

00;11;43;00 – 00;12;12;14
Rick Hoaglund
What about someone who’s had a loss? You know they’re, they’re, and I’m going to put myself in the place of a family member of someone who knows, who has a family member that’s lost somebody. How do you handle that? And then I’m going to ask to reverse in a minute. But if you’re, if you’re, grandfather just lost his wife, how do you do Christmas? How do you do Hanukkah? How do you do whatever holiday it is that is a big holiday in your family?

00;12;12;17 – 00;13;28;15
Christina Eggebeen
Well, well, again, we we don’t make it about ourselves. We check in with, you know, if if my mom lost her life partner, I would ask, what do you need this Christmas for it to be fun for you. But simultaneously, a celebration for our family that you have that sacred time for each other. So you, you just respect whomever had the major loss in their family. You know, and, anniversaries of deaths, we get a lot of calls at the call center. I say, what prompted you to call today? And, you know, well, it’s the one year anniversary of my uncle passing. And, we talk a little bit about that, and then we make a referral for their session. So you can lean on counseling, you could, agree to come together, with some kind of tribute for that loved one. And, and by loved one, you know, this could be our fur companions too. Dogs, you know, that grief for a pet is, is very real. But everybody could bring a photo, or everyone can come prepared for sharing a positive memory, a memory they’re grateful for with that loved one.

00;13;28;17 – 00;13;42;06
Rick Hoaglund
It’s good. Now I’m going to reverse it. What if I’ve just lost somebody? What can I expect my feelings to be? And how should I handle it during when everyone else is very happy? I may not be, I may not be.

00;13;42;09 – 00;14;51;12
Christina Eggebeen
Yeah. I’ve spoken with people who say the hardest part is of grief sometimes is watching the rest of the world just move on, and also having guilt that they laugh and have joy because that means they didn’t really love the person, or they’re not properly grieving. But there is no way to properly grieve. There’s no, it doesn’t follow any rules. It can, a song could come on and you, Phil Chard, the former CEO of Empathia used the word emotionally ambushed instead of trigger. Because isn’t that true? Somebody said something, you hear a song, you see a mug. You know, a certain piece of China that grandma used to use, and, and you’re there in your mind. And if someone says, “hey, where’d you go? You you checking out?” Just say, “hey, you know, I was just thinking about grandma” and, or, you know, I was, I had the amazing opportunity to work on a critical incident with Bob VandePol. He does a lot for Empathia and likely did some podcast for OnTopic.

00;14;51;14 – 00;14;51;26
Rick Hoaglund
Yes

00;14;51;28 – 00;15;20;03
Christina Eggebeen
He’s amazing. I learned so much from him. A boundary that, some verbiage for boundary setting from him starts with the statement thank you for asking, and that right away you’re setting the boundary politely and then say what applies. Thank you for asking. I’m not really ready to talk about it. Thank you for asking, but I don’t, I don’t have enough information to answer that question. You tailor to your situation.

00;15;20;06 – 00;15;45;24
Rick Hoaglund
So how about the role of gratitude? We talk a lot about gratitude. You talked a little bit in a way about gratitude as well. But gratitude is, can be difficult to display at the holidays. It just can. I mean, you are thankful for something, but emotionally you might not be there. How do you express gratitude?

00;15;45;26 – 00;16;11;09
Christina Eggebeen
I think it’s important to realize that we need to surround ourselves by safe people. If you’re not feeling “on” air quotes, it’s okay. You don’t have to be what you’re not feeling. Be emotionally present. And if you’re surrounding yourself by people who see you and know you, they’ll be okay with that.

00;16;11;11 – 00;16;14;18
Rick Hoaglund
What if you have to spend the holiday alone?

00;16;14;20 – 00;17;14;09
Christina Eggebeen
Spending a holiday alone is not the worst thing in the world. For somebody who feels very, very, very spread thin. It doesn’t mean, you know, both things can be true. I can love my family very, very much and also want to spend Thanksgiving alone under my favorite blanket with my pet, watching stupid movies, and eating a pint of Ben and Jerry’s. It doesn’t mean I love them less. This, this holiday, I’ll be going to celebrate Christmas briefly with both of my parents, separate households. In the past, traditionally, I’ve spent the whole weekend there, many, as my nephew and niece called it when they were growing up, many sleep nights, and I, I just because I’m not spending the whole time there. And just because somebody does not do what the host wants them to do, doesn’t mean they love their family less.

00;17;14;12 – 00;17;20;24
Rick Hoaglund
What about the person that is alone at the holidays? Not by their own choice?

00;17;20;27 – 00;19;04;02
Christina Eggebeen
That’s a good question. That’s something that, just like any other scenario where you feel like you might be in a bad spot, you plan ahead. Consult with your psychiatrist about your medication regime before the holidays if you’re taking medication. Are you in good health? Are you doing everything you can? Consult with your therapist. Come up with a safety plan. If you’re surrounded by people whom have in the past been abusive to you or dismissive or condescending, those aren’t your people. So you have to come up with a way, a lifeline if you will, phone a friend. The other thing too, is you can come up with a, you know, I had, one time I was just hanging out and I got a text from a good friend of mine that said, call me. So I immediately called her. I said, are you okay? She said, yes. And she said, I just needed, an excuse to leave the room, I wasn’t feeling safe. And she was around some family, her birth family in a whole other state. So, have that group of people who can tag you out, even if just to catch a breath of fresh air. Go for a walk. Just having a plan. Maybe you could do something at church. You know, a lot of people say, well, volunteer. Well, you know what? Some people aren’t in the emotional space to volunteer. Volunteering isn’t always the best solution for somebody who feels depressed. Talking about doing one dish, doing one load of laundry, taking a shower, that, that’s huge. Text me when you take a shower.

00;19;04;03 – 00;19;33;01
Rick Hoaglund
Tell me about if somebody has the holiday blues and that is such a common term. But the reality is, I think there are people that get kind of glum at the holidays. They just do for, for whatever reason. Do you have any advice for them for sort of, getting through the holiday? I’m not going to even say changing your mood because it may not be possible, but is there advice for those folks to get through the holidays?

00;19;33;03 – 00;20;21;29
Christina Eggebeen
Yeah, absolutely. You know, there’s some, there’s 988 that you can call for support and in the moment support. Just talk therapy. You can text 741741 to NAMI and engage with a, counselor. Some of the companies we cover have, peer support or a chaplain service. Plan ahead and pick up that thousand pound phone and make that contact with somebody. It’s, it’s, it, just give yourself permission to realize that it’s right now, in the moment, you’re alone. But that doesn’t mean you’re alone. And you won’t always feel this way and try to do some forward thinking.

00;20;22;01 – 00;20;32;26
Rick Hoaglund
So you’re saying, and I hope I’m not putting words in your mouth, but it’s kind of okay to be sad. It’s kind of okay as long as you know that that’s what you’re doing.

00;20;32;29 – 00;21;47;25
Christina Eggebeen
It’s absolutely okay. And notice it, sit with it and then let it go or, I talked about gratitude. Sometimes we sit in these really big emotions: jealousy, resentment, rage. And, using the alphabet is the favorite, my favorite thing I like to tell clients to do. Come up with something you’re grateful for that starts with the letter in alphabet and go through the whole alphabet. You physically, emotionally, all of those psychosomatic symptoms calm by the time you get to Z without even realizing it. It’s, they just calm, the headaches, the, the chest. You know, the your heart pounding, shortness of breath, all of that calmed. Because your body is, you’re not able to ruminate about the past. You’re not stuck in the big emotions. You’re not giving foothold to those negative emotions because you’re changing the chemistry in your body by focusing on just the present and, I don’t know, just being in a different mindspace.

00;21;47;27 – 00;22;13;10
Rick Hoaglund
So do the holidays trigger a lot of, I mean, they’re, they’re obviously meant to be happy, but for, for a lot of families, there’s a lot of struggle out there. Do you have any advice for an individual or a family that’s just really, really struggling? When do you know when you should be seeking professional care?

00;22;13;13 – 00;22;43;12
Christina Eggebeen
If these, these feelings of hopeless helplessness and burdensome persist, we always recommend to consult with your primary doctor because they don’t know you’re suffering unless you tell them. And that doesn’t necessarily mean there’s anything medically wrong with you. But therapists are not medical providers, so lean on your existing supports. If you, if you have a therapist, lean on them.

00;22;43;15 – 00;22;44;26
Rick Hoaglund
Your friends too, I would guess, right?

00;22;45;01 – 00;25;39;23
Christina Eggebeen
Yeah. Your friends and the friends that understand you. And you know, there are a lot of populations who struggle for specific reasons, surrounding the holidays. Anybody who’s endured some family trauma, some clients of mine say, you know, my, my mom wants me to come home, and her, you know, her, my stepdad, her husband will be there. And he touched me inappropriately when I was 16, and she never believed me. And so you have to decide, is it safe to go home and or go home with conditions? I will come for two hours and I don’t want to talk about anything related to what happened. You have the right to set those boundaries. With regards to addiction, if you’re nervous about being home for the holidays, if you’re early in your sobriety and your family drinks, even, I mean, they can drink a lot, they can drink a little. You can say, “listen, I’m really struggling with my sobriety. I also want to be in your company. Can you please refrain from drinking this holiday?” That’s fair to ask. And if they can’t, then find a sober group of people who are celebrating the same holiday because you have to find your community, the LGBTQIA population, not everybody agrees on transgender, and supporting, gender affirming surgeries. Some, believe very literally the interpretation of the Bible and feel, they tolerate you. So you want to go in, focusing on the people who see you and, you know, just drawing some good boundaries, whether that just be a nonverbal boundary like looking at the person whom is giving you sort of judgmental, intolerant vibes, just like, you know, I’m not going to go there with you. I’m not going to engage. The political divide, this year, again, revisit the idea of I don’t feel comfortable talking about this at the holidays, you know, thank you for asking how I’m doing about the election, but I don’t want, I don’t think it’s appropriate to talk about it. So I guess I’m really honing in on good self-care, setting boundaries, which really isn’t easy. It’s a, it’s like shooting free throws. You have to, you have to practice. You have to get into it. And eventually it feels natural. You have to practice setting boundaries and practice good self-care.

00;25;39;25 – 00;25;44;29
Rick Hoaglund
Is there anything I haven’t asked you that you’d like to talk about with holiday stress?

00;25;45;01 – 00;28;39;16
Christina Eggebeen
You know, when I did this holiday presentation, to the staff, I asked for their feedback because I wanted to be sure I presented professionally relevant, and user friendly for our podcast together. And the one slide that they really seemed to like was, if you work a 12 step program, the 10th step is taking your personal inventory. You know, what am I bringing? What are my challenges? What, what have I done well? What am I bringing to this? Because we don’t, we don’t live in a vacuum. We interact with each other. We caused dynamics with one another. So be mindful of what you say. There’s an abbreviated guidance if you will: THINK. Says is it true? Is it helpful? Is it inspiring? Is it necessary? Is it kind? And if you take pause before you speak to anybody, this really frees up a lot of, of negative energy because you’re thinking before you’re talking and, you know, it’s like squeezing the toothpaste out. Once it’s said, you can’t put it back in. And it’s a crummy feeling. It’s a crummy feeling. The other thing I, I talk about a lot is, the four agreements. The Four Agreements is a book by Don Miguel Ruiz. He’s got four principles. Be impeccable with your word. So that goes back to the THINK analogy. Don’t take things personally. Sometimes when somebody says something or, you know, you have to sit over here this year. But what does that mean? Why? Don’t overthink it. Just let it go. Notice how you feel in the moment, but it’s okay to not address it. Don’t make assumptions. A lot of times when you get the email or the text and we read it, I’m guilty of this. I’m guilty of this. I have a cape. I am the superstar at drawing the, going to the worst possible scenario. When we refrain from making assumptions or notice that we’re having big emotions and spiraling, because we’ve made an assumption, it’s helpful if you can let that go. And then he mentions, you know, if you slip up, if you take something personally, you send us snarky email, a snarky text in response because you’re reacting with that reactive self. Just do your best, pick yourself up, dust yourself off. And then there’s always the emotional intelligence you can revisit. Hey, I didn’t, I’m sorry. I was in a mood when I sent that text. Let me, you know, let’s start over or talk to someone on the phone. Say I didn’t, I didn’t like how our conversation went last time, and I just want to revisit it. In the 12 step program. That would kind of be an amends, if you will.

00;28;39;18 – 00;29;15;24
Rick Hoaglund
I think it’s interesting that you brought up the being very thoughtful about what you, what you say, because while we’ve been talking about it being on the person that’s lonely and everything, people may be the instigator and not even know it, like they may be the person that’s triggering a lot of tension in the room, and they may not even know that they’re doing that. So having this thoughtful way of, well, thinking before you talk, basically, and ensuring that what you’re saying is what you’re meaning is, is one way, I would think, to prevent some of that tension, at least caused by you.

00;29;15;26 – 00;30;21;09
Christina Eggebeen
Exactly. People are unaware of the fact of how they present sometimes. There is a correlation between trauma and social skills, social anxiety. So just practicing noticing your reaction and what you would have sent in a text versus what you were able to take pause and send. Once you are back to your core values, that practice, it eventually becomes second nature. There are other mindfulness based techniques that you can do. Alphabet one is just an example that I like. You can look around the room and locate something that starts with the letter in your first name. Go through your whole name. You can find a book and look for a specific letter, like the letter K on ten pages. It doesn’t have to be deep. This is, this, this research says you know that surgeons are using this right before they enter the patient’s room to have a difficult conversation, because then they’re present with the patient. So why can’t that help you? You know, in your personal life.

00;30;21;12 – 00;30;30;26
Rick Hoaglund
I always tell myself there’s always time for a deep breath. Just taking that second can reset a little bit.

00;30;30;28 – 00;30;49;03
Christina Eggebeen
Yeah. There’s an author that writes, a series, fiction about Jack Reacher. And he was in a really precarious situation. Dangerous. And his motto is, see what the next 30s bring. And that’s always stuck with me when I read that.

00;30;49;05 – 00;31;11;24
Rick Hoaglund
Tina, thank you so much for being on our podcast. I really appreciate it. Your words of wisdom hopefully will help our, our listeners going through this holiday season. And actually, it’s not just about winter holidays, it could be any holiday, any family gathering, any celebration. Like you said, weddings, that type of thing as well. And I really appreciate your words of advice. Thank you so much.

00;31;11;27 – 00;32;06;15
Christina Eggebeen
Yeah, Rick. And just one more thing I wanted to say and, again, I’m being redundant. It does kind of lean into the gratitude list, but when you go into a situation, again, remember it’s not about you. But what can you bring to the event? I went to a funeral once for somebody I didn’t know and I was very nervous. I was being there supporting a friend, and instead of making it about me and being self-conscious and having anxiety, I looked for acts of service. There was an elderly woman who looked a little peaked, and I approached her and I brought her some food from the family room, and some water. And it just got me out of my head and allowed me to help someone. And they circled back and thanked me for that. And that, that felt really good. So I just trying to think outside the boxes is my point, I guess.

00;32;06;18 – 00;32;09;21
Rick Hoaglund
Well, thank you very much. I really appreciate all your time.

00;32;09;23 – 00;32;14;04
Christina Eggebeen
Yes, you’re very welcome. It was a privilege to be here with you.

00;32;14;06 – 00;33;02;27
Rick Hoaglund
Thanks for tuning in. We hope you found a few helpful tips and reminders to make this season a little more peaceful, and a lot more enjoyable. Remember, it’s okay to take time for yourself. Say no when you need to, and create a holiday that feels good for you. If you found this episode helpful, be sure to subscribe and share it with someone who could use a little extra calm this holiday season. Wishing you all peace, joy and resilience. Happy holidays! To hear other episodes of OnTopic with Empathia, visit our website empathia.com. Follow us on social media @empathia. And subscribe to OnTopic with Empathia to hear new episodes as soon as they go live. I’m Rick Hoaglund, thanks for listening to OnTopic with Empathia.