Episode 48: Afraid to Fly with Philip Chard, Part Two

00;00;10;05 – 00;00;45;13
Kelly Parbs
Welcome to part two of my conversation with Philip Chard. Phil is a psychotherapist who helps people that struggle with fears and phobias, including the fear of flying. In episode one, he shared with us that he too has experienced anxiety around flying. I look forward to continuing our conversation and learning ways that fear of flying can be managed. Do you think there are people who can do this on their own without professional help, in terms of helping themselves with fear of flying?

00;00;45;15 – 00;01;18;07
Philip Chard
Yeah, absolutely. There are ways to do that. Like everything else, you can Google, you know, suggestions on how to deal with aviophobia and try those out on your own. The time when that’s not the case is when you find that your own self-care methods are not getting the job done, or you feel that the level of anxiety you have is intense enough that you don’t believe in your own ability to positively influence it.

00;01;18;09 – 00;01;26;22
Kelly Parbs
Those would be some indicators that, you know, great that you tried on your own, but maybe intervention would be the most helpful for you.

00;01;26;24 – 00;02;13;09
Philip Chard
Right. And to go back to my own experience. You know, I felt when I couldn’t get on the plane after my scary flight, I felt like I needed to get some help with that. I was something I didn’t feel like I could just handle on my own, because it had all the hallmarks of being a post-traumatic stress kind of response. So I did go see a therapist and, who does EMDR, eye movement desensitization and reprocessing, more of our psychobabble. And, that particular method is specifically designed to treat post-traumatic stress. And, it was successful. I’m now able to fly pretty much anxiety free.

00;02;13;11 – 00;02;17;16
Kelly Parbs
How long was that process for you or how long is it typically?

00;02;17;19 – 00;02;42;18
Philip Chard
I don’t know if there’s a typical. In my own case, it was about a half dozen sessions, and at each of those sessions you revisit and, you know, through your memory and imagination, the events that went on and you basically learn to rewire the brain to react differently to those same kinds of triggers that set off the anxiety in the first place.

00;02;42;20 – 00;02;56;28
Kelly Parbs
You had mentioned that the fear of flying wasn’t built in for you. It happened because of this experience. For some people. Is it built in? Are there some people who are genetically predisposed to having a fear of flying?

00;02;57;00 – 00;03;51;14
Philip Chard
That’s a great question to which we don’t have an answer. It’s I think it’s more useful to look at it within the broader context of anxiety. Meaning some people are higher on that personality trait called neuroticism, meaning they’re more prone to worry and to catastrophize and obsess about things. And those folks we know can develop it, even independent of never having been on an airplane. Just the thought of being, you know, on an airplane, on a flight is enough to induce a phobic kind of mindset for them. Whereas other people, they may again have that anxiety based predisposition, if you will, but they have to have it triggering event, a bad flight, a bad experience as I did.

00;03;51;17 – 00;04;40;07
Kelly Parbs
So I’m thinking about kids and flying. And when I think back to my first flight when I was a kid, probably around age five, we went to Disney World and had a whole lot of fun. And I got to bring a real puppy home in my mom’s purse. We had, we had family in Florida who breeded puppies, and I was the lucky little girl who got to bring one home. So I have these memories of flying where I could reach down into my mom’s purse and and touch a fluffy, cute puppy. So I don’t know if that has anything to do with why I feel calm and maybe even happy when I’m flying, but that’s my first memory. Do you have any advice on how we might best set kids up for a positive flying experience?

00;04;40;10 – 00;06;02;02
Philip Chard
Well, sure. I mean, how you talk to them about it. Is one way. I mean, if, if you’re anxious about it, and you know how kids are, they’re very perceptive and they’re going to pick up that, you’re experiencing some trepidation and they’re going to think, well, maybe I should to, you know, if Mom or dad are scared about this, then there must be something here to be scared about. So your own role modeling in both what you say and how you act, is probably one of the biggest determinants of how a young person is going to respond. When you’re actually on the flight with, with a child, you know, parents know how to do all kinds of things to be reassuring and comforting to their children. So it’s just the usual suspects in that regard. And sometimes if the child’s particularly younger child in the household helps them to bring along some kind of comfort symbol. You know, maybe a stuffed animal that they, or their binky, you know, that they sleep with or, you know, those kind of things are also very helpful for, for kids. And then it’s after that kind of a matter of luck, meaning hopefully it’ll be an, not a frightening flight. And they won’t go through that kind of experience their first time out of the gate. You know, one trial learning is what you say in psychology.

00;06;02;05 – 00;06;19;22
Kelly Parbs
Well, an even more motivation, right, for adults to get treatment if they are struggling with fear of flying so that if they do ever travel with their children, they can really role model that confident behavior and and not necessarily pass on those anxieties.

00;06;19;24 – 00;06;38;18
Philip Chard
It’s interesting you mentioned that I’ve had some clients who told me in flying with their children how they’re anxious, but their child isn’t. They’re just, they’re, they’re either not picking up on it or they’re just sort of immune to it or whatever. And so they’re sitting there all anxious, and they look at their kid, and the kid looks fine.

00;06;38;20 – 00;06;40;15
Kelly Parbs
So many times we can learn from kids I think.

00;06;40;15 – 00;06;42;20
Philip Chard
That’s for sure.

00;06;42;22 – 00;07;00;08
Kelly Parbs
Yeah. So what if, you know, we’re not the one who’s struggling, but someone that we love, or maybe our coworker that we are traveling with is having a difficult time? How can friends or family best support someone who’s afraid?

00;07;00;10 – 00;07;45;25
Philip Chard
Really by listening to them, you know, asking them questions, open ended questions about, hey, what’s going on? And how did, you know, what do you, what are you thinking about? And how is this affecting you? And I mean, as opposed to doing the opposite, which is to try to provide, what is really in the minds of someone with aviophobia, false reassurance, you know, “oh, don’t worry about a thing” or “everything will be fine” or “I’ve flown thousands of times and I’m not,” you know, that kind of stuff. While it may sound like, it’s going to be helpful, is usually not because what you’re sort of doing is invalidating the person’s experience. You’re kind of telling them,

00;07;45;28 – 00;07;47;14
Kelly Parbs
Really might frustrate them

00;07;47;16 – 00;07;52;25
Philip Chard
Yeah, yeah. You know, sort of like, hey, you know, that’s fine for you, but that doesn’t work for me.

00;07;52;28 – 00;07;55;14
Kelly Parbs
Yeah. You’re saying, hey, don’t feel how you feel.

00;07;55;16 – 00;07;59;26
Philip Chard
Exactly. You got it. So that’s the least helpful thing you can do. Oh, don’t worry about a thing. You know,

00;08;00;08 – 00;08;02;14
Kelly Parbs
We’re going to be fine.

00;08;03;16 – 00;08;47;26
Philip Chard
They’re already worried about it. And saying that’s not going to change it. So the best you can do is really just ask them questions, get them the opportunity to talk about it, and also be sure that there’s no shaming going on. You know, it’s, you know, this kind of sense of, oh, you know, get over it. You know, “oh, people have been flying for, you know, whatever. Everybody,” you know, that kind of stuff really does not help. Because part of what happens with aviophobia and many phobias is that the person also feels this level of shame about the fact that they’re having this problem. It’s like, what’s wrong with me? Or you know. Am I defective? Mentally defective, and which they’re not.

00;08;47;26 – 00;08;48;19
Kelly Parbs
Sure, of course.

00;08;48;21 – 00;08;52;04
Philip Chard
So it’s really important not to invoke shame.

00;08;52;06 – 00;09;08;08
Kelly Parbs
I flew with a friend once who I never knew had a fear of flying until we were actually on the plane, and. And she revealed that to me, and I just simply asked her, you know, how can I best support you? And she said, can you just hold my hand during takeoff.

00;09;08;09 – 00;09;15;07
Philip Chard
There you go. There you go. And that’s a, that’s an excellent question to ask somebody. Yeah.

00;09;15;09 – 00;09;19;15
Kelly Parbs
In all areas of life. Right. How can I help? How can I support you?

00;09;19;18 – 00;09;44;04
Philip Chard
Exactly. Because many times they know. You know, they know that there’s something. And by you asking that question, you are, number one, you’re validating what they’re experiencing. Number two, you’re telling them it’s okay. And number three, you’re offering to do something to partner with them to make it better. And those three things are going to have a major impact.

00;09;44;07 – 00;09;55;19
Kelly Parbs
Sure. Are there any resources, that you would recommend outside of this podcast that people look up to support them or help them with this?

00;09;55;22 – 00;10;37;09
Philip Chard
There are, you know, people can go on, you know, Amazon or Google or wherever they go to get their stuff. And, you know, type in fear of flying or anything like that, and you’re going to see a whole bunch of resources come up. There’ll be different books there’ll be other podcasts, there’ll be even self-help programs that might be available for people online. So as opposed to just recommending one thing. What I usually tell people is go look at the resources that are out there, kind of pay attention to which one seems to really connect with you and take that route as your first way in, if you will.

00;10;37;12 – 00;10;48;06
Kelly Parbs
Sure. For some people, it might be a book. Other people might respond better to experiential apps. Look for the resources and what you connect most with.

00;10;48;09 – 00;11;35;19
Philip Chard
I’ll tell you one other. This, I’m not sure why I thought of this, but I did, so I’ll throw it in. You know, these, these new devices that are, virtual reality devices, you know, like the, you know, the airplane goggles kind of thing you put on and you go into virtual reality. There are programs that have been developed, to help people with fear of flying by putting them in a virtual environment of flying, they literally will put them at the controls of the plane, in the virtual environment. So they feel that level of control. And that’s another way you can desensitize yourself to the experience of flying. That’s one of the newer ways coming out, in the behavioral gaming industry.

00;11;35;21 – 00;11;56;18
Kelly Parbs
Interesting. Phil, one of the things I’ve always truly respected about you is your knowledge of research, both past and present. And I was wondering, in regard to fear of flying, if, if you know of any advances in technology or research that can give people hope. It sounds like that might be one of them.

00;11;56;21 – 00;12;40;04
Philip Chard
Yeah. I actually went, because I, I don’t like to recommend things to people unless I subject myself to them. So I went out and bought a, one of the quests, meta quest it’s called, the virtual reality devices. And, one of the games, if you will, that I got on there was a flying game where you can sort of learn how to fly, and you sit in the cockpit and you use your controller to control the plane and the whole bit. And it’s a very real feeling. I mean, aside from the fact that you don’t somatically have the experience of flying in every other respect, you do visually, auditorily, and again, that can be an excellent way to desensitize.

00;12;40;07 – 00;12;56;24
Kelly Parbs
Interesting. My first thought is that might be a little bit scary for somebody who has these fears to have such, a realistic, experience. But I suppose if they do that, they’re going into it knowing that this is a technique that they want to try.

00;12;56;26 – 00;13;32;18
Philip Chard
It is scary at first. And that again is part of the desensitization or the exposure, therapy process is to face your fear, to face it in a safe environment. I mean, I mean, it feels real, it looks real and all that, but, you know, you’re sitting in your chair, you know you’re not sitting in a, in the fuselage of an airplane. So with that background knowledge of I’m really not in any danger, it can be much easier to face and work through the fear that comes from the, sensory experience itself.

00;13;32;20 – 00;13;43;04
Kelly Parbs
Interesting. What are some of the common myths about flying, and can we discuss those to maybe dispel some of those myths?

00;13;43;07 – 00;14;21;17
Philip Chard
Yeah. One of the more common myths is about turbulence, which is one of the primary triggers that people have for fear of flying and what the airline people will tell you is because people say, “well, if the the plane becomes, you know, rocks too hard or is buffered about too hard, what if the wings fall off? What of an engine falls off?” You know, that kind of thing? Well, the main wing in an airplane is a continuous structure that runs right through the plane. It’s not two separate wings attached to the plane. So I’ll tell people that. I’ll say, you know, this wing is one piece. It’s not several pieces, so it can’t come apart.

00;14;21;19 – 00;14;22;22
Kelly Parbs
I did not know that.

00;14;22;29 – 00;15;30;04
Philip Chard
Yeah. And the way that they secure jets to the fuselage or the wings, depending on the kind of plane you’re on, is also something I talk to people about. I mean, the number of attachments and the strength of those attachments and the redundancies in those attachments. The other thing people worry about is, well, what if we lose the system on the plane like hydraulics, you know, they control the, the flight controls and so on and so forth, the redundancies on these airplanes is such that if one system goes, you know, there’s a backup and there’s a backup to the backup and so on, and so forth. So the safety measures that are built into these, these planes is just remarkable. And this has been improving steadily. Each time there’s a bad experience with an airplane, there is an accident. You know, they they analyze it, they figure out how to make things better, and they go back and, and retool things for that purpose. And right now, flying is incredibly safe. From a structural standpoint.

00;15;30;06 – 00;15;55;02
Kelly Parbs
You know, I always appreciate when the pilot comes on and tells us that there’s going to be turbulence. That assures me, you know, this isn’t a surprise to the pilot, and it instill some confidence in me that, the pilot knows there’s going to be turbulence. That’s a normal part of flying, and the pilot knows how to navigate that.

00;15;55;05 – 00;16;09;03
Philip Chard
Yeah. And again, you know, these planes do not come down from turbulence. That’s not what knocks planes out of the air. When you tell people that even if they’re very, very frightened, you know, it provides at least a little bit of reassurance.

00;16;09;05 – 00;16;15;06
Kelly Parbs
Information is power. I think the more factual information we can give people, the better.

00;16;15;08 – 00;16;44;18
Philip Chard
And one of the things I tell people is they’re on a flight and they’re in turbulence and they get scared is I say, look at the flight attendants. Do they look scared? You know, are they freaking out? Because these are the people. This is their job. I mean, they do this all the time. And if, if the planes bouncing around, but they look fine. Maybe they’re strapped in even because there’s enough turbulence, but they’re reading a magazine or whatever. I mean, that’ll tell you as much as you probably need to know about whether you’re in danger or not.

00;16;44;22 – 00;16;56;19
Kelly Parbs
Good point. Yes. Good tip. So I’m curious as to whether the pandemic impacted people’s level of comfort with flying.

00;16;56;22 – 00;17;41;22
Philip Chard
I think it did, but not for the same kind of reasons we’re talking about. I think that effect is more been about, you know, am I going to catch something on the plane? This sense of, oh, I’m in this enclosed space, recirculated air, blah, blah, blah. That’s I’ve heard a lot about that. And of course, if people are generally anxious, again, you know, you’re getting on the plane and you’re anxious about catching Covid or something else. That anxiety can translate over into the flight experience itself. And when the two become connected and you get the old stimulus response thing going, you know, Pavlov’s dog. And, pretty soon somebody can be anxious about flying, even though they were initially anxious about Covid.

00;17;41;24 – 00;17;51;27
Kelly Parbs
So whether or not it’s about Covid or it started as a fear of flying before that, all of these different ideas and techniques that we have talked about should be helpful for them.

00;17;52;04 – 00;18;10;03
Philip Chard
Right. I just wanted to mention one other thing that when we were talking earlier about how do you treat this? There are times when it can be appropriate to use medication. You’ll see this walking through an airport. You’ll see all the people sitting at the bar. Self, self-medicating with alcohol.

00;18;10;04 – 00;18;11;07
Kelly Parbs
Medication. Yep, got it.

00;18;11;07 – 00;19;03;03
Philip Chard
To calm themselves down, there’s a lot of that going on. But I’ve had people who are going to take particularly long flights like overseas and, and they’re, you know, pretty anxious about it where they go to their family physician or whatever and they say, I need something for the flight over, and I need something for the flight back. And they’ll prescribe, you know, a anti-anxiety medication just for that purpose. And I’ve had people say, well, I don’t want to have to rely on medication. Well, you’re not really relying on medication because you’re just using it for one specific situation. So I caution people not to avoid that if they think it would be helpful for them, particularly if it’s, again, a long, flight or many people get more anxious flying over water, you know, that kind of thing.

00;19;03;06 – 00;19;28;02
Kelly Parbs
Thank you for mentioning that. And actually, the girlfriend that I mentioned earlier that I just held her hand during takeoff and landing, she shared with me that every year when she goes for her annual visit, she gets two anxiety pills because she figures she’ll take at least one vacation in a year where she flies, and it’s the only time in a year that she uses them and they help her tremendously.

00;19;28;05 – 00;19;30;09
Philip Chard
Yeah, nothing wrong with that, nothing at all.

00;19;30;16 – 00;19;57;28
Kelly Parbs
Thank you for that tip. I do see that it’s about time to start wrapping up, and I always like to end with practical tips for our listeners to leave with. We talked about a lot of good information, and hopefully people who need it will relisten to this podcast. But as we close this conversation out, can you list a few practical tips that you hope our listeners can put in their toolbox?

00;19;58;00 – 00;21;27;17
Philip Chard
I think the main theme here for, for all of us, when we experience any kind of fear of flying, is about, again, things that influence your perception of control. And the more you have the experience of I have control over how I’m feeling or things that are going on around me, or the conditions I set up, in preparation for the flight or the flight itself. The more you’re going to be able to manage the anxiety experience and the easiest thing to control is ourselves. You know, you can’t control the weather. You can’t control the turbulence, you can’t. All these kind of things are out of your control. So you focus on what you can control. And the things we’ve talked about, like deep breathing, a deep muscle relaxation is another thing that we didn’t touch on, but that’s an important one too. The self-talk. All of these things, connecting with others, using distractions, all of those things, if you think about it, are about me controlling me. And when you, when you pile on enough of those, if you will, then that sense of inner agency or capacity to influence what’s happening inside of you, goes up. And that is the most pivotal point in addressing aviophobia or almost any phobia for that matter.

00;21;27;20 – 00;21;34;06
Kelly Parbs
Great. Thank you for that excellent information, Phil, and thank you for spending this time with me today.

00;21;34;08 – 00;21;38;21
Philip Chard
It’s been my pleasure. Thanks for inviting me.

00;21;38;23 – 00;22;43;03
Kelly Parbs
Fear of flying for some people can be debilitating. It can make confident people feel out of control. It can ruin travel plans and complicate holidays, but there is good news. According to the Cleveland Clinic, most people who participate in treatments, such as those Philip Chard talked with us about, respond positively and experience relief. We at Empathia are here to help people respond to life’s challenges. And we hope that you can make use of some of the ideas that were discussed today. We know that if you feel safe and calm in the air, your travels will be more fulfilling and your mental health will be better. And when your mental health is better, your life is better. To hear more episodes of On Topic with Empathia, visit our website empathia.com. Follow us on social media @empathia and subscribe to On Topic with Empathia to hear new episodes as soon as they go live. I’m your host, Kelly Parbs. Thanks for listening to On Topic with Empathia.