Episode 33: Addiction Recovery with Dr. Ted Carroll, Part Two

00;00;09;00 – 00;01;11;15
Rick Hoaglund
What does it feel like to be addicted to drugs or alcohol? For someone who’s not an addict, it’s easy to say, just don’t do it. But what does it feel like? Let’s take a look at addiction through the eyes of a recovering addict. I’m Rick Hoaglund and you’re listening to OnTopic with Empathia. Doctor Ted Carroll is a recovering addict. We met him during our last episode when he told us of his personal journey from someone originally deemed unemployable to an educated, successful therapist, state government employee, and assistant instructor at a university. In this episode, we’ll explore what is the attraction to substances? What does a successful road to recovery look like? And what’s life like now for Ted? Welcome back Ted Carol! And if you don’t mind, continue on with your story. In the first episode, we talked a little bit about your- your background in your road to recovery. And now we’re starting to get into your actual recovery steps, I believe, am I? Am I right with that?

00;01;11;18 – 00;15;07;22
Dr. Ted Carroll
Yeah, definitely. I- you know, I was clean and sober. I, had really had a lot of realizations through my own therapy and then continuing on in the 12 step meetings and being a sponsor and having a sponsor and continuing through that, that 12 step process, it was very enlightening. And so a lot of things happened for me. And I really, you know, maybe the biggest factor of the 12 step program for me is admitting powerlessness over drugs and alcohol and, and, and then accepting a higher powers help. And so, I needed to have a higher power is the point. And, and for years, I could see how, you know, lack of power, was a problem for me. It was my biggest problem, perhaps, and in some ways and I didn’t think I was entirely powerless, of course, as a whole. But, man, when it came to drugs and alcohol and everything that came with that, a lot of different behaviors, really, that I don’t need to get into here. But just saying that I was powerless over that and powerless over the hopelessness that, that, that, you know, that that, you know, became part of my life and the way I lived and and so anyhow, through that whole step process, I was empowered is what I’m getting at is another huge part of that is helping others all the way to the 12 step talks about kind of helping others and being of service in an altruistic way and- and oftentimes, in an anonymous way. So anonymity is a huge part of that because, you know, it’s really not about me is the point. And meaning the like, recovery and, even my own life arguably, like, you know, I’m a human being who wants to have a good experience just like most other people on this planet probably, or and perhaps, perhaps all of them, arguably! And anyhow, so here’s what happened. Then I stayed clean and sober, and I, I started, doing a lot of things because I felt freer than ever, like I was saying and- and, I started going back to work and again, remember all this time, I was, I was on that SSDI, which was, which was great at the time. It was a blessing. It helped me a lot. But, I started going back to work a little bit at a time and, first kind of just busing at a restaurant, which was great, was kind of fun, met other people and, just kind of doing life. And that was great! A lot of them actually happened to be in recovery, which was really cool! I started going back to school! I went back to community college at this time, and actually in 2011, I started at Spokane Falls Community College again with a handful of credits like I was saying from 1999, maybe five credits or something. And, so pretty much starting with a high school diploma and, and I, I just didn’t know what I was going to do necessarily. But spiritually, I felt called to just do that. I felt like it was my path and, and really just had this passion for learning. And so I did that and then, transferred to, an evening program at Whitworth University in Spokane after completing that degree. And, and I started working in intro level kind of social services at a, at a nonprofit agency in Hilliard, which is Hilliard, Washington, within the Spokane area really is one of the poorest zip codes in the state. And so that was, a great opportunity for social services and, exploring that avenue. I was working there part time, really, and had and had just met my wife, by the way, at this time. And, well, actually, right before this, right before I started going back to school, or right after, I guess. Anyhow, her name is Tonya. She’s amazing. I love her, she’s my best friend, soulmate, best lover, everything! She’s just great! She- she and I have so much fun together! She’s my adventure partner. And I say this because here’s the thing. I was so antisocial, Rick! I thought, there’s no way I can date anybody ever, ever again! And, part of my story I mentioned was sexuality. And so I identified as bisexual. So I was really sorting through that again in sobriety and dating people and figuring that out. And man, I’ll tell you what, she wasn’t necessarily looking my way, and I wasn’t looking hers either. But we like to say that, you know, our higher power has a sense of humor, and he’s also good at stuff. And so, anyhow, like, we, started talking, and I actually asked her out to coffee, and she said, no! I’m busy, and I have kids. What are you talking about? And, I said, oh, crap! Because I say my worst fear, right? Type-A women, what? Like, I can’t handle that! Historically! So anyway, what happened is she’s like, try me back in two weeks. I’m like, really? She actually had a real day planner in her hand, like a paper day planner. I’m like, ugh, what? Who is this girl anyway? So, that was intriguing! And I asked her again in two weeks and she said yes. And, I thought I might die, but, but anyhow, we’ve been together ever since, and, actually, within six weeks, I asked her to marry me, and, that was new! Never done that before! And, she said yes! And we, you know, woke up the next morning and said, well, this is awesome. And let’s be wise about this too, based on our personal histories. But- so we set a date two and a half years into the future, and we kept that date, which was, May 23rd of 2015. So basically then I just wanted to share that because, we, you know, continued to just be best friends and live life together and, and then and, you know, it’s just been so cool. It’s just kind of a, a bonus to walk, through the 12 steps and through life with someone who’s also clean and sober and, she also has a, clean and sober story. And her timeline, essentially matches mine, or real close to it. Anyhow, as far as, getting clean and sober. So that was amazing and anyway, going back to to school. So all of a sudden, though, I’m dating this, this woman and oh my gosh, life is a trip. And then so I’m, I’m in school full time, I’m working part time, and she’s in my life, and there’s all these people in my life. And it was totally the antithesis of what I was living before, the, the, you know, reclusive, addicted, dark, you know, just alone. Super lonely, hopeless, and, and all of a sudden, like, I mean, you know, you heard this story, but now life was about, excuse me, about freedom. It was about all these things that I could do and that I’m doing all of a sudden. And then. So anyway, I’m at Whitworth now, and, I graduate with a degree in social services, actually, liberal studies in the social sciences and, bachelor’s degree. Right. And then, and then almost immediately I start a master’s program. Online based, but I contract with local agencies to do counseling stuff. So it was in marriage and family therapy and clinical counseling, and they’re accredited by The Right Things by the right associations, nationally speaking, the gold standard, through the American Counseling Association, CACREP and all the- so, you know, this was important to me! And I didn’t know any of this stuff! And I had just come out of my own therapy, essentially. And I’m still kind of in therapy, but I’m, you know, I’m and for the record, I’m willing to go back to therapy today. Right? I mean, I think therapy could help any human being. Like, how could it not? So anyway, I’m also a therapist and I’ll get there, but so, just kind of- of course, it seemed natural in my- in my walk. So I also started working, for the state government at this time in the Department of Social and Health Services as a social service specialist. And, that was a trip because this was now a full time job. I get off Social Security disability income and, you know, get off that, that SSDI income and, and that took a minute because, just that, that way of doing it, takes a minute to get off. Anyway, I was suddenly off of that. I’m working full time for the state as a, social services worker with the public and doing all these things. And I’m in school full time in a master’s program, and, and, we get married, you know, in 2015. And, it was the best sober party we’ve ever experienced, 250 of our closest friends and family and, you know, and, great little chaplain, Coeur d’Alene, Idaho. And anyhow, just really cool stuf!. And so then what happened is I, graduate with a master’s in marriage and family therapy and- and in clinical mental health counseling. So I, I’m in, you know, I’m in it! And I’m traveling the country a little bit to, to do different clinical trainings and, through the school deal and, and, so, so for that time, got to, you know, basically travel all over doing, doing those, those, studies and training and, and then I’m now, you know, working toward licensure with the state, with the Department of Health, Washington, for a licensed mental health counselor. Tou know, licensure. And I do that. And, at the same time, through that process, somebody, within the same program, essentially, it was like, you know, we have this doctorate program and it’s, you know, it’s kind of like, why not? And, and so I, I pray about it. I, I put it out there to the university. It’s in it’s totally the doors wide open. It’s in my path. So I feel obliged to do that. And even and also just, excited and passionate. And so anyhow, all of a sudden, I’m in this, doctorate program, counselor education and super supervision is the PhD program title. And so, anyhow, that was, I started that right when I start in state licensure hours for the clinical hours and working with two different local agencies in Spokane, face to face counseling with, with family groups and also individual counseling. So kind of both of those tracks and and also maintaining my full time job and also happy in my marriage and also, by the way, this time one of the, two adult children that- well, they were teenagers at the time when I entered the relationship- my wife, thankfully, has these two amazing children who are adults now. But at the time they were they were teenagers. And, that was a whole ‘nother thing. I asked their permission, by the way, before I moved into their, you know, to their mom’s house kind of thing. And before I asked her to marry me? Whoo! So they thankfully said yes. And they saw something. They liked me, apparently. So that was cool. but most of all, they didn’t tell me to get the heck out or something like that! So, they they gave me their blessing, essentially, which I’m appreciative of, eternally appreciative of. So anyhow, the, the fact is then I, you know, was doing all these things, life was full. And I was also continuing the 12 step program. I was- I was sponsoring guys, and I was, that kind of- that definitely came first in my life. And my life still centers around that because it’s important. It’s my where my spirituality starts and continues. And so really the portal of the rest of my life, if you will. And, so anyhow, I, I, through that PhD program, began in 2018 and just graduated and, with degree conferred through that whole dissertation process in its own kind of field work through that, just in August of this year. So, I’ve been Doctor Ted since then, and, and I also, have been mean- I’ve maintained a private practice, actually since 2018 as well. And that started in person by sharing an office, actually, with my clinical supervisor at that time! This was outside my day job. And, just sense of life is, was full and and then COVID happened, right? So then I went telehealth completely and maintained private practice. So through that and then just recently opened, a brick and mortar space in downtown Richland, Washington, where my wife and I moved about a year and a half ago. and it’s called Actualized Psylutions with a P-S-Y-Psy-olutions! because here’s the thing. Life is about actualization for me. And- and that’s what I really focus on with people in therapy today as a private therapist, as a licensed mental health counselor, and a counselor, educator, and supervisor. And so what I get to do is focus on trauma, really I help people access their subconscious so they can delve into, safely delve into trauma events that, may have precipitated other events in their past, including substance use for some folks. And there’s, different, techniques, of course, with that. And I, specialize in strategic based therapies, in the, tradition of Milton Erickson and also, trauma informed care and utilize, rational emotive behavioral therapy, as well as other, specific therapies that help folks, not only access their subconscious, right? But continue healing or find where to heal, even and so often therefore, they’re able to, change behaviors in their own life that they don’t want to be doing or start behaviors that they do would like to be doing. Pretty much, get past a seemingly hopeless block, or impasse that they’ve, come up against emotionally for some reason. Or perhaps what usually happens or happens frequently is folks come into my office and they say, you know what? I have a good life. I don’t know what’s going on, but I’m stuck. And, I just cry sometimes, and, and that’s kind of a generic, kind of intro to say that, like, you know. Yeah, let’s explore that. Let’s, maybe we can help, access your subconscious and see what’s going on there and, help you get where you want to be and do that kind of thing. So that’s kind of what I focus on in therapy.

00;15;07;24 – 00;15;35;06
Rick Hoaglund
What do you say to someone that has never had an addiction, that type of thing? And they just say, well, why don’t they just stop? why don’t they just stop drinking or taking drugs? I mean, it’s- it, it’s to this person. It seems like the logical thing? And I guess to this person, it might seem easy? What do you say to to to that? I mean, I’m sure that you I don’t know if you’ve had experience with this, but I’m sure you’ve you’ve heard that from other people.

00;15;35;09 – 00;18;48;21
Dr. Ted Carroll
Yeah, definitely. I’ve heard that and have some experience with that as well. And, and, you know, there’s a lot of things I, I say, one if it’s, you know, someone’s asking me directly, I say, well, I don’t know. Have you ever tried to stop breathing? And how long can you do that? And one reason I ask, and that is because really, it’s become a physiological response, to, you know, a need. and although it’s different than breathing, in a sense, it’s a good it’s a good analogy and it’s a good practice for somebody. Of course, it creates conversation too, right? Since it isn’t exactly the same. as far as trying to hold your breath, for example, it’s like, well, who really could stop breathing? I mean, arguably, but, you know, for very long. Right? So, hopefully nobody on purpose. Anyhow, so the point is, though, brings up that conversation of, you know what? There’s a physiological phenomena happening here. And, there are a lot of factors at play. For one, you know, once a person introduces a substance into their system, and repeats that over time, like Vermont in my story, for example, I started in junior high cracking a few beers, right? And, and I didn’t know it at the time, but, I needed some kind of comfort then. And this is not everyone’s story, but I think it’s a good example of this kind of thing and really does speak to the nature of addiction, and that is that, I didn’t necessarily know why I was drinking those beers at that time. And, and it led to everything else that I just talked about. Right? It led to the- to so much booze and then the hard drugs and everything else. And so, for me, it was, like breathing in a sense, because my body became so accustomed to it that, that, that there’s a, also a, you know, a, a neurological phenomenon happening as well where, where my, brain requires that there’s certain synapses that need to fire. They can only do that if if they’re fueled. essentially, just like with oxygen. But in this case, it’s the substances. And so, on another level, it’s the, you know what, the emotional whether it’s repression or just other more emotional escapes or emotional unawareness is or even if someone is very aware of something and that would be more of the escapism. But once the person starts to, to drink or use any, substance with that as far as alcohol or drugs, then they become dependent on it physiologically. There are also genetic factors, and and there’s newer research into DNA, especially that, that, implicate the last three generations for, for any person, where it’s like you know, if, if three generations ago, my, my ancestor or my relative was drinking heavily or using other, drugs, then it’s it’s likely that that I might have an issue with that, too. And so I might be, I might have that tendency, genetically. And so there’s that factor as well. Anyhow, I just kind of talk about those different factors and, and have that conversation.

00;18;48;23 – 00;19;06;11
Rick Hoaglund
What- what do you, how do you know that you’re an addict? Like, at what it does everyone at some point just come up with this philosophical enlightenment that I’m, I’m an addict? Or how do you know, how do you know when you, you know, if you’re an individual that’s going through this?

00;19;06;14 – 00;20;04;07
Dr. Ted Carroll
That’s a great question! And I’m glad you asked because, everyone I think needs to decide for themselves. But here’s what I find as a consistent, common, you know, factor is that, when a person starts to have some dysfunction in their life and doesn’t necessarily do what they want to do in their own life, and that’s a good indication that that the dysfunction is at a level, where where they’re addicted. Another factor is if the person can stop using successfully and function how they want to function in their own life for months at a time, that’s an indication they might not be addicted. But even if they go back to it every few weeks, or arguably every few months, they, they might have an addiction problem and, and they might be dependent on that in ways physiologically and so emotionally and neuroscientypically that, that they may not be aware of. And so I would say they’re addicted at that time as well.

00;20;04;09 – 00;20;20;17
Rick Hoaglund
And what do families I mean, families might be one of the first people that realizes that someone may have, an addiction issue or addiction problem. How do they approach that? What’s the best way to approach someone in your family that you think might have this problem?

00;20;20;19 – 00;23;24;28
Dr. Ted Carroll
Great question, right? And I think it really depends on the family, because each family is such a unique entity. And, and and they each have their own dynamics, just like an individual. A family is an organism. And so, the different family members represent different members of the body, so to speak, in that family system. And so, you know, family systems theory really speaks to this as well. As far as the addiction and alcoholism, right, are a family disease. And so how to approach a family with that is to say one, well, you know, what is your part really? You know, because it’s a family disease. It’s a family system. Therefore, each family member has a part. Because it’s a family disease doesn’t mean just the person with the addiction or, you know, the addiction problem or the alcoholism doesn’t – and I use those terms interchangeably, but that then it’s not the one using the substance that just has the problem. In fact, it’s a response or a symptom of a whole family problem. And so there’s that whole family systems approach as well. To answer your question more directly, Rick, what I would do is I would say, yeah. What is your part? Of course, that may be some after initial conversation, but but how to talk to a loved one about that would be maybe like, hey, you know, I’ve learned that family that, that alcoholism, that addiction is a family issue and that, you know, we each have a part in this family. And, you know, we’ve noticed or I noticed that you’re really drinking or using a lot. And so, you know, what do you think about that? And, and overall, I would say, I would say it’s really about loving that person through it. And that’s a really kind of ambiguous statement, right? So, it’s kind of like if the person is willing to get help, then that’s a good sign that that help can help, if you will. If a person says they’re not ready to get help or they don’t want help or they don’t think they have a problem, then it’s probably, best to, healthfully detach. And I see that, so for the other persons in the family, it would be, you know, to really not enable that person. So, for example, if that person is dependent on the family, on another family member or anything financial or housing related, then it might be time. But I say this with caution because again, it’s up to each family, right? And it’s really about family dynamics and boundaries, and what each family decides for themselves. But, that, that typically enabling doesn’t help. So at least over time, come up with a plan where you can healthfully detach, meaning, stop providing that person, the housing or the or the finances, or that kind of thing to continue, at least at the same kind of routine that they’re, that they’re doing. There’s a loving way to do that, and there’s a way to reach out to, you know, different social service and mental health agencies in order to help support that, of course. but there is help out there and there are ways to discuss that kind of thing, of course, with other professionals, even at no cost. Especially, especially in this country. So, yeah!

00;23;25;01 – 00;23;41;21
Rick Hoaglund
So does someone have to reach a low point in their life to suddenly say, I have a problem? Are there people that have – I should ask ask it in a different way – Are there people that will need to reach a very low point in their life before they will reach out for help?

00;23;41;23 – 00;25;07;18
Dr. Ted Carroll
Well, that’s my experience, Rick. You know that there that- that is true for for a lot of people. But I will say it’s not always true, right? And so, well, one term I I’ve heard is kind of like, you know, you don’t have to keep digging. You can put down the shovel, you don’t actually have to go down too far, in order to recover. But on another sense, because addiction isn’t a choice. That’s a really sticky statement, right? So so I will say that I’ve met plenty of people who, who maintain function throughout their life, even in business and family, at a pretty high level. And so they didn’t necessarily hit an external bottom, right. They didn’t lose everything. They didn’t start off in poverty. They didn’t, necessarily have, relational, at least too many relational, impacts, even though they might have had some mild impacts or moderate impacts in their life. But what happened is I do what the consistency I do say is that everyone I’ve met who, who acknowledges they need to recover from drugs or alcohol and they end up going down that path. The, the commonality is that they’ve reached a spiritual or emotional darkness, and, and bottom, if you will, a bankruptcy in that sense that, spiritually or emotionally, that that really does equate to some commonality.

00;25;07;21 – 00;25;24;26
Rick Hoaglund
What about relapses? I mean, at sometimes I would think as a family member or friend and someone relapses, you might just want to give up hope that that person would ever have- is it common? Is it something that happens? Is it? I’m not going to see it to be expected, but is it just- is it, is it a common thing?

00;25;24;29 – 00;27;27;18
Dr. Ted Carroll
Yeah. Relapse is really common. And almost always it’s part of the the path to sobriety in my experience, anyhow. And I mean that both personally and professionally, if you’re able to listen to the, rest of my story here, you know, I started, really wanting to become clean and sober and, early on, really when I was going to 12 step meetings and I couldn’t. And so I just what I’ve, I’ve heard is called a chronic relapser, and so in other words, from, for, for 10 or 15 years, I was relapsing all over the place in one sense. but really especially the last maybe, five years of my drinking when I really wanted to stay clean and sober and was able to get maybe 2 or 3 days at a time or one time, you know, even a few months, a handful of months, one time, although, you know, because of the nature of recovery and what I needed to do, my life didn’t change in those months. But anyhow, the point is, I relapsed and relapsed and relapsed over those five years. And I was really trying to get clean and sober, though, before 2009, so yeah, definitely. And here’s the thing, Rick. I met, so many other people who have relapse as part of their story, but at the same time, I’ve met many others who who don’t, and I, I’d hate to put a percentage on that or something, but I will say it’s kind of all over the board. And, and it is a pretty unique experience, but, certainly if family members especially or, or individuals, of course, for themselves are disappointed or discouraged about relapse, I will say that, it’s very common. And, and the more people in recovery are trying to try and get into recovery, talk about it, especially in different community settings, support groups or 12 step groups, or in therapy or with other friends and family who are supportive, our coworkers, for that matter. Then then, you know, they’ll find out that they’re not alone.

00;27;27;21 – 00;27;47;08
Rick Hoaglund
Is this something that you will have to guard against the rest of your life? Is there a piece of you that kind of still wants – I don’t know if you want to call it wants, but feels like it needs to have a drink or a drug now? Or do you think you could just walk away from it, you’d be fine?

00;27;47;11 – 00;31;05;22
Dr. Ted Carroll
Oh, great question. And, no, here’s the thing. I, I, I will be addressing this my whole life, really. And I say address, but what I really mean is, you know, today it’s, I’m so thankful, which seems, counterintuitive, but I’m so thankful that I’m a recovering drug addict and alcoholic you know, right? Because it really opened up the rest of my life and, gave me, you know, peace of mind and insight and, I may use this term a bit lightly, but, you know, but enlightenment, as far as just being aware of my own life and the universe on some level, that, you know, there’s more out there than my small world that I was stuck in this dark, lonely place. So anyhow, Rick, I here’s- here’s a more, down to earth answer is that I still have thoughts of drinking and using. I have thoughts of drinking and using weekly most weeks. and they’re really they’re fleeting. but I’ll see. you know, whether it’s a billboard sign or a commercial on TV or, or someone, like, incidentally, is carrying a, bag of, powdered sugar with them because, I don’t know, it’s a potluck and I’m putting it on some cupcakes. I don’t know, but things like that where the times I least expect it, I’m like, oh, that’s, you know, that addiction is still alive in me. And I will say this, it’s not alive in me in the sense that it was. But the point is, yeah, I have the disease of alcoholism, of addiction, and that will never go away. Just like kind of when cancer goes in remission, my, my addiction is in remission. And, you know, the spiritual treatment is what I’ve described, right? The that I say spiritual I of course, that involves the emotional wellness, that involves the community connections, that involves the, transparent relationships, that involves the willingness to be honest, when I’m struggling and the, the willingness to ask for help even now. and so I sometimes I still have a 12 step sponsor, and I, and I can call him and I call other guys that I’m accountable with, especially guys. But, I mean, I can talk to my wife about it. thankfully, when I have a thought come up and maybe it’s not even initially about using or drinking, and that’s kind of what I’m getting at, is that, here’s the thing. Relapse can start with some kind of thought that I’m not okay, right? That like that life sucks or I’m not okay. And, even though I’ve recovered, I think I recovered. Well, maybe maybe there’s still, this thing where I’m just not okay. And it’s kind of an existential, depressive thought, right? I mean, of course. So it’s like, okay, how am I going to address that? I need to talk to somebody about that! And, because it will turn in to a drink or a drug, picking up one of those things if I don’t address that. And I will say it’s been some years since I’ve been in that spot. And, as far as, as far as really wanting to carry that out, right? Thankfully, though, because I’m in the middle of a recovery program still, I’m in the middle of 12 step groups. I volunteer with those 12 step groups weekly. I sponsor guys like I was saying, and I do have a sponsor who has a sponsor, and that’s really important as far as 12 step work goes.

00;31;05;24 – 00;31;09;00
Rick Hoaglund
Is there anything you’d like to add that we haven’t asked?

00;31;09;02 – 00;32;36;09
Dr. Ted Carroll
Gosh, just, you know, that, that, you know, I’m pretty sure for me, anyway, that this, experience through through addiction, alcoholism, again, using those terms interchangeably, but through through recovery from trauma for in my case. And that’s not everybody’s case, but it is pretty common, the continued path toward emotional wellness, and the recovery from trauma really speaks to, higher plane of existence, or just a different plane of existence, right? And so it’s a place where, I can be inclusive of others and a non-judgmental place where I can practice acceptance. And that’s a huge part of my spirituality is what I’m getting at. And so, I’m really wanting to share that, you know, I’m not sure of where, or this, you know, the path of recovery ends, with when one of us dies sober or something, y’know when one of us dies in recovery, right? That it’s carried on, and there’s some kind of eternal, connection there because of the way the 12 steps are passed on and whether I- whether anyone calls it a 12 step or not, but sharing that experience and that strength that comes from, there, you know, what happened to them and where they’re at now. And so it really provides hope, hope for people. And so that hope is maybe what outlasts, everyone, if you will, continues to, to grow even after some of us pass away or that kind of thing.

00;32;36;11 – 00;32;39;26
Rick Hoaglund
Thank you very much for sharing your story with us, Ted, I really appreciate it!

00;32;39;26 – 00;32;41;25
Dr. Ted Carroll
You’re welcome! Thanks so much for having me!

00;32;41;27 – 00;33;27;18
Rick Hoaglund
If you or someone you know may have an addiction, there is help. The Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration may be able to assist you finding the right treatment. There are government agency whose staffs a national helpline. Their phone number is 1-800-662-HELP. 1-800-662-HELP. They’re available 24 hours a day, seven days a week. To hear other episodes of OnTopic with Empathia, visit our website, www.Empathia.com. Follow us on social media @Empathia, and subscribe to OnTopic with Empathia to hear new episodes as soon as they go live. I’m Rick Hoaglund – thanks for listening to OnTopic with Empathia!