Episode 7: The Six Principles of Trauma-Informed Care with Scott Webb

00;00;09;01 – 00;00;44;04
Rick Hoaglund
Welcome to OnTopic with Empathia – I’m your host, Rick Hoaglund. Today on this show, we’ll meet Scott Webb. He is a trauma-informed care coordinator at the State of Wisconsin Department of Health Services. Since 2014, Scott has provided training and technical assistance to more than 10,000 clinicians across Wisconsin. His insights on Trauma Informed Care have been featured in articles published by the Wisconsin Center for Investigative Journalism and Estimates. He’s also presented at numerous conferences and presented the keynote speech at many of them. Hi, Scott! Thanks for joining us!

00;00;44;04 – 00;00;46;08
Scott Webb
Well, thank you, Rick! Appreciate being here today.

00;00;46;10 – 00;02;01;27
Rick Hoaglund
The National Council for Mental Well-Being reports that 70% of adults in the U.S. have experienced some type of traumatic event at least once in their lives. That’s 223 million people and more than 33% of youths who are exposed to community violence will experience post traumatic stress disorder. This is a very severe reaction to traumatic events. The U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs reports that about five out of every 100 adults or 5% in the U.S. has post-traumatic shock disorder in any given year. In 2020, about 13 million Americans had PTSD. Women are more likely to develop PTSD than men, and eight out of every hundred women, or 8%, and four out of every hundred men, 4%, will have PTSD at some point in their lives. And what we’re talking about today is called trauma informed care. And whether people have heard of that verbiage or not, they may actually experience at work because it is the new way of managing people. It’s the new way of managing students. But most people have no idea what it means. What does trauma informed care mean?

00;02;02;06 – 00;03;37;28
Scott Webb
Well, that’s the big question, right? In trauma, informed care was very new to me. In fact, I wish I could go back in my career when I was a young psychotherapist and worked in EAP, I wish that I would have had this knowledge because it would have completely transformed the way that I practiced, the way that I viewed my client companies, the way that I interacted with them, the supervisory consults that I did, the onsite trauma response services I provided, if I would have that trauma informed perspective would have been helpful. So to answer your question, trauma informed care has been around really since the early 2000s. And what it is, it’s- it’s an organizational framework. It’s an approach, Right. It really involves recognizing, understanding, appreciating that people have past traumas in their life and they bring those into the work space and they may not even be aware that they’re doing that. I certainly didn’t. And I’m a trauma survivor myself. I make that very clear in my training that I do around the state. I never really understood and appreciated how my past could affect my present and my health. So trauma informed care is really that that framework, that approach that we understand that people come to work, they show up doing sometimes heavy emotional labor, and we want to create a work culture that they can flourish, they can thrive. It’s really a paradigm shift from the traditional workplace culture. So trauma informed care is just being aware of people come in with traumas and that we are trying to do what we can to help mitigate that, to create kind of a safe space, wellness based kind of work cultures.

00;03;38;03 – 00;03;54;29
Rick Hoaglund
So tell me, you said you were a trauma survivor. We’re not going to go into all that. But tell me as a person that has had trauma and come into workplaces, have you yourself experienced the negative reaction of what it’s like when an employer does not use a trauma informed care perspective? And what does that do to you?

00;03;55;27 – 00;04;46;14
Scott Webb
Yeah, that’s a really good question, and I have thought about that over the years. I’ve reflected as I’ve learned it and have become more adept at thinking trauma informed thoughts all the time. I did work in places that were very what we’d call triggering, where my supervisors approach or tone of voice sounded a lot like what I grew up with. And I have this visceral kind of response and I go into this fight or flight. I may not be real overt, but inside my stomach is churning and maybe I’ve got an adrenaline burst and I’ve got some cortisol going through my body because that’s what I was adept at doing as a kid. And so I did have those situations, those relationships that were very challenging. I didn’t understand why they were challenging until I learned what trauma can do to your brain, to your body and your overall health. So it was very illuminating for me to learn about that and to kind of put those pieces together.

00;04;46;26 – 00;04;56;12
Rick Hoaglund
You said this was in your past. Is it- Most of the time people’s childhoods or can it be just any time prior to going to work? I mean, I guess it can happen at any time trauma can.

00;04;56;21 – 00;05;52;00
Scott Webb
Absolutely. Trauma is not just a childhood thing. The whole idea of trauma informed care started from something called the Adverse Childhood Experiences study that came out in the in the nineties. But yes, trauma happens at any stage in our lives, right? And so it’s it it makes sense that we would struggle to some degree perhaps. What I notice as an EAP professional, looking back when I would do like on-site, trauma response debriefings or critical incident stress debriefings, whatever you want to call it, of the group of people that I’m meeting with, there would be one or two people that I would watch, and they had a different response to what happened in the workplace, compared to everybody else. Now, if I would have been trauma informed, I would’ve been thinking and I would have been curious about what’s their story, what happened to them? Did something happen to them earlier in their life that this trauma right now in this workplace is affecting their ability to cope in a way that their peers are seen to be doing okay with? So I, I see that. I wonder about that. And being trauma informed is about being curious.

00;05;52;09 – 00;06;08;20
Rick Hoaglund
You just mentioned that as a therapist, you saw that. So how does that translate into the business world without going through a lot of detail, can you teach a manager to watch for those things as well because you’re a therapist, so therefore you have had training, you have education, you have experience in that. Can you also train others to watch for those things?

00;06;08;27 – 00;07;30;28
Scott Webb
Yeah, I think for any organization that wants to take the journey to becoming trauma informed, I think that it’s it’s an all hands on deck kind of experience. Everybody is learning together and there’s no us versus them. We’re all in this together. We’re trying to figure it out. And part of that process is training people, retraining, constantly, talking about trauma, how it affects people, and then as leaders, as supervisors, as managers, how can you as a leader manager, how can you best create an environment where you know, you’re looking in the mirror of your own supervisory skills? And how am I? Am I being trauma sensitive, trauma responsive, am I approachable in my, you know, do I have open door policy? Do I generally see my employees as human beings and want the best for them, or are they cogs in a wheel? And I just want them to come in and do their work and shut up and don’t give me any grief kind of a thing. So you see all that. But I think that journey of becoming trauma informed as an organization is about really having that awareness of having that constant awareness of looking at your day to day through those trauma informed lenses and just seeing how different your the environment may look when you start to become adept at doing that. And that’s something that’s a journey that I’ve been on in the last ten years as I’ve learned about this, as I’m hopefully getting to the point where I just reflexively look at my world through that trauma informed lens.

00;07;31;08 – 00;07;43;08
Rick Hoaglund
What are the goals? I mean, you said you’ve been on this journey for ten plus years, and maybe when you first started, the goals were one thing. What are they today? Or is there a change in what trauma informed care was from the beginning to now?

00;07;43;14 – 00;08;21;04
Scott Webb
No, I think the biggest challenge, Rick, has been that getting organizations, getting leaders to expose them to this whole idea of the adverse childhood experiences, study what that’s all about, what does that mean? And then looking at their day to day, their work today, how do they take these trauma informed principles? There’s six of them. How do you actually begin to take those and apply them in your work culture? And this can be different for every organization. It’s really a journey and it’s a journey that never ends. It’s like continuous quality improvement. It just keeps going and you’re always, always reexamining and adjusting and questioning and learning.

00;08;21;13 – 00;08;32;21
Rick Hoaglund
Tell me a little bit. You just mentioned a study a couple of times. Tell me what was in the study like. Why was it important to to awaken this movement of trauma informed care? What was it about?

00;08;33;01 – 00;12;18;18
Scott Webb
Good question. And like a lot of studies, it was kind of like an accident. Two different doctors, different ends of the country. Dr. Felitti out in San Diego, California. Dr. Rob Banda at Centers for Disease Control in Atlanta. Both came to the conclusion and wondered, in their own practices, in their own work, does adversity in childhood affect a person’s health long term? And so they collaborated. They created a ten question questionnaire called the ACE Questionnaire and there are ten questions. Yes and no questions. Basically looking at three different areas abuse, physical, emotional, sexual abuse of that person, neglect, both physical, emotional and household dysfunction. So they created this ten question questionnaire, yes and no answers, and every yes response would be like, for instance, have you ever been sexually abused? Yes. No. If yes, that’s one ace. So the highest score you could have on that would be ten, which is not good. I’m a five. I’m right in the middle. That’s not good either. But what they found when they gathered that data and they they had an end of 17,400 people that they actually gave this ace questionnaire to. They gathered a lot of data and then they asked a lot of health related questions. And they found this relationship between ACE score and overall health. The higher your ACE score, the higher your chances of having serious health problems. And they could be physical health problems, they could be behavioral health issues. Like for me, I’m a heart attack survivor. I survived a widowmaker heart attack about eight years ago. Heart disease is a big, big connective piece to ACE scores. And I have an ACE score of five. So it kind of made sense. But it could be HIV. Cancer’s been connected, suicidality, domestic violence, all these issues. And we never, ever examined that before and thought about, oh, my gosh, you mean things that happened in the first 18 years of your life in your home could have this much impact on your health and well-being. And when that study came out in the late nineties to both the doctor and Felitti’s chagrin, there was a lot of crickets. A lot of their researchers, a lot of their peers thought it was junk science and they didn’t think that there was any validity to it. So fast forward 25 plus years later and we now see more data, more information. This study has been replicated all over the world. It keeps coming back with this dose response relationship between ACE score and health outcomes. So from that study it was like, okay, if this is all true, if we can accept this is a reality and that this is there’s something here and now we’re at the point where we do know that we do see that it is valid and it’s real. What do we do about that? What is our response to that information? It should convict us. It should prompt us to examine this further and say, then what can we do to create a work environment or an organization and whatever it is that would help people who come from trauma, from a lot of high scores, they’re showing it at work. How can we create the best environment for them to be do the best that they can do and help us as an organization fulfill our mission? So that’s kind of where trauma informed care came from that a study and fortunately we’re getting better at we’re getting more literate with ACES, and I’m still meeting a lot of people out there around the state when I do training that they’ve never heard of aces. A lot of parents have never heard of aces. And we really need to continue that education and let people understand because the light bulbs go on. I’ve I’ve done training with parents and I’ve seen their jaw literally open during the training. I’m explaining it to them and they come up to me afterwards and they’re like, This explains my child, this explains my spouse, this explains a lot of things. And you can just see that they’ve they’ve really had this illuminating experience.

00;12;18;27 – 00;12;37;20
Rick Hoaglund
So as part of this new program, this trauma informed care program, if someone were considering it, does that mean that everyone would then be given that same ACE test or is that something that you just have to say, okay, the average score is X, Y, Z, therefore, we need to make sure that we’re meeting these standards? I’m not quite sure how it relates to that.

00;12;38;02 – 00;13;46;19
Scott Webb
Yeah, you could certainly do that. And I’ve had organizations I work with where they’ve had an external entity like a university, whatever they would proctor a confidential administratration and collection of the ACE questionnaire as one piece of data that they could use to kind of explain the why they would want to make these cultural changes, because it’s a lot of work. It’s heavy work, it’s hard emotional work. So that can be done. I will say that that questionnaire can be triggering for some folks. I’ve had physicians take this questionnaire and they became very emotional when they went through and saw their score. And I’ve heard stories. I’ve had people tell me that on the side and after my training. So it can be triggering. It is one option. But I know that we know based on our data, what we’re collecting at the state is that we know that approximately 60% of the Wisconsin adult population report four or more aces. That translates to roughly 741,000 people. That’s a lot of people with four or more aces. And that’s significant because that’s what we’re really that’s where we begin to see health issues. When you get to far more aces nationally, it’s about 33 million people.

00;13;47;01 – 00;14;13;11
Rick Hoaglund
And you talked about the principles. So we kind of talked about a little bit about the background now and we kind of know where it came from and and a little bit about what it means to have trauma informed care. But it is a directed approach. So what are the principles that you’re trying to to meet as you’re talking about it, trauma informed care in either it could be in health care can be an education, it can be in business, it can be it’s very widespread, right?

00;14;13;19 – 00;17;38;24
Scott Webb
It is. Yeah. The six principles come from the substance abuse, mental health services administration or SAMSA. And people have taken those and they’ve adjusted them and massaged them and made them a little bit more condensed. But really they come down to six main principles. The first one being safety. That’s physical and psychological safety. How do you create that? And I know that we’re having conversations in workplaces all over right now. Post-Pandemic. How do you create psychological safety in the workplace? Well, that’s a very, very key principle in trauma informed work cultures. So that would be incumbent upon every organization to figure out what that means for them. What does it look like, sound like and feel like in your work with your clients, with your employees, with your experiences? The second one is trustworthiness and transparency, because a lot of trauma survivors, they may not be aware of this, but they lack trust because they’ve been hurt by so many people in their life that they have this betrayal and trust issue. And if organizations are also not as safe place, and after a trauma happens in a workplace and people feel like it hasn’t been handled well, there’s something called institutional betrayal that I’ve come across that people will feel like they’re not safe because the company is not taking care of them. So they feel violated and betrayed again and again. They may be unaware of this connection because they aren’t tuned into their own trauma history. They may know that it was there, but they don’t really give it much thought. So trustworthiness and transparency is really, really important. And then the other piece is peer support. How do you engage peers? What does that look like for you? For any organization? I know in the law enforcement community, that’s really becoming a thing because officers will not speak to necessarily the EAP sorry, EAP or a counselor, because if there’s a diagnosis or a paper trail, they’re not interested, but they will go to a brother or sister on the force and talk to them. So how do you engage peer support in any organization, in any company setting, whether it’s manufacturing or whatever? How do you do that? What does it look like? Another one would be collaboration, mutuality. Now, how do you collaborate? In my world, as a therapist, I was seen as the expert so people would come in and they bask in the glow of my infinite wisdom, and I bestow upon them a diagnosis. And we go from there. Well, in a trauma-informed environment, I’m looking at my client as my- they’re a co-expert, they’re the experts on their lives. And so employees are experts on the work that they do. So leadership should be collaborating with the staff and not have this hierarchical power structure going on. Then there’s empowerment, voice and choice. How do you give people a voice? How do you give them a place at the table? And are you making them aware of what’s going on in the organization or be totally empowering people to give feedback, constructive feedback to leadership, giving them choices. Those are all really important pieces. And then there’s the cultural, historical gender issues. We’re in the space now in the work world where that’s become even more prevalent. In my work with gender issues. How do you honor that implicit biases? How do you uncover those as a leader and how do you deal with those? And I know when my training with trauma informed supervision, I’ve had more requests to kind of move into that and talk more about that because it’s in 2023, that is an issue. So those are the six principles. And I think the challenge for any organization is how do you actually take those six principles and apply them in your world? And it’s an ongoing journey, right? You’re never arriving. You’re always working on that and constantly training and learning and giving each other feedback and just growing together.

00;17;39;00 – 00;18;07;29
Rick Hoaglund
And so these principles, when taken as a whole, they’re setting up a goal for your company, right? I mean, that’s your organization. I wouldn’t call it a company. I’ll call it an organization. So what is that goal? Do people need to actually express that as part of their putting putting trauma informed care in place? Do they need to have like an expressed goal? So that people I’m not going to say that you ever meet the goal where I talk about that in a second, but so they know where they’re going toward?

00;18;08;07 – 00;19;08;00
Scott Webb
Yes, so organizations- I’m thinking of Waupaca County Human Services. They always have what they called their BHAG, which was their Big Hairy Audacious Goal. Chuck Price was the executive director there – he’s no longer with them, but he was one of the first to really take trauma informed care and work on putting it into the whole making it into the entire organization. But their goal was to become a gold standard place where people can come and get assistance. They wanted to be the gold standard where people felt safe when they came in. There were people working there, felt safe. They felt like they were being taken care of. So really the goal of trauma informed care should be this creating spaces where people can be feel psychologically safe, where they feel like they’re engaged, they have a voice, and if they’re struggling, that’s okay to say I’m struggling and that they’re not going to be judged. They’re not going to be shamed or blamed for anything, that the leadership is going to work with them and help them bring out their best. So that’s really the ultimate goal. It’s about creating compassionate workspaces. It should be status quo, but unfortunately, it doesn’t always happen that way.

00;19;08;16 – 00;19;16;13
Rick Hoaglund
It it almost sounds like it’s a two way partnership. Like the individual themselves probably has some homework to do as part of this process as well.

00;19;16;20 – 00;19;34;06
Scott Webb
Yes, everybody does. This is one thing I make very clear that there’s a parallel process when you’re applying these six principles. That’s how leadership applies them to the staff and how the staff apply that to their customers, their clients, their consumers, whomever. So there is a definitely a parallel process. Everybody has a stake in this and nobody is left out.

00;19;34;22 – 00;19;45;15
Rick Hoaglund
Does it work coming right down to it? Does it work if you decide to do this, does it work? And if it does work, how can you ensure that it’s working? How do you know if it’s working?

00;19;45;24 – 00;21;45;06
Scott Webb
That’s the big, big question because I think we’re still at a place across the country where trauma informed care is still not completely understood and recognized, and we’re still trying to do a lot of initial education around what it is. So then the next question is, is there any ROI data putting on my EAP hat, Is there any return on investment? And I haven’t been able to find a lot of ROI data out there nationally. I know that I’ve heard organizations have gathered their own data and they can see a definite improvement. I just got an email last Friday from a group in Columbia County, Wisconsin, somebody I had done quite a bit of training with, Carol Showblum- she’s the division administrator of economic support at Columbia County Health Human Services. And she sent me an email just kind of give me an outline of what they’ve been doing, and they’ve been doing a lot of really cool things. They’re using tools of civility within their organization when communicating with each other. They’ve got a gratitude board to provide feedback to each other. They’re really encouraging people to talk and to kind of come together, and it’s starting to get the attention of other divisions within Columbia County because they’re like, What’s going on over there? Because it seems like your staff is really, really happy. They’re really engaged. They seem to be really enjoying their work. So it does change the tone. And I’ve heard this from other organizations around the state that have actually made this journey, and they’ve seen it now deliver ROI data out there to see. Not yet, but I’m hearing pockets like I know there’s a credit union in La Crosse that has become trauma informed and they started their collections department and they have a different relationship with customers now who are delinquent in their loan repayment instead of being adversarial or butting heads, they’re coming alongside them or they’re coming in from a trauma informed approach. And they’re seeing a lot of positive resolutions to some of these delinquent accounts because the customer is seeing the collections team not as the enemy, but as an advocate and an ally. And that’s what trauma informed paradigm shifts will do.

00;21;45;20 – 00;22;07;21
Rick Hoaglund
So let’s say that you have decided, yeah, this is a good thing for my organization. How do I sell it? Like, what is the tool that I could use? Maybe there is no single tool. It might be multiple tools or there may not be any tools to be able to go to my leadership group or to my employees. If I am a leader and say, this is what we’re going to do and here’s why we’re going to do it.

00;22;08;08 – 00;24;49;26
Scott Webb
That’s the question is why. And whenever I do a trauma one on one training, they always want to me to come back and do a trauma tool, one, an implementation training. I’m like, well, sorry that that implementation doesn’t work. But the training, the training hope only goes so far. So it’s a conversation with the leadership and it’s about the why and it’s really important to build. Explain the why to your staff and what I tell organizations. I tell them, Well, you need to tell me why do you want why trauma informed care? Why now? What are you seeing that tells you this is what you want to do? Because you’re signing up for some really hard years ahead of you. It’s it’s difficult. People don’t like to change. 70% of work culture efforts don’t succeed for lots of reasons. So we have those conversations. But I also tell organizations that you should probably gather some data, not just ACES data, but also there’s another tool that I like called the PROQOL. It’s the professional quality of life scale. Beth Hudnall Stamm put it- she created that years ago and she sold it up. It is still free online. It’s PROQOL.org. And that is a 30 question questionnaire where you can just kind of get a sense of your staff’s level of compassion, satisfaction, compassion, fatigue and burnout. And hopefully they’re honest and you can have it proctored outside of the organization. It could be confidential, but that will also give you some data about where people are at, where is your organization as far as it’s this overall health, If people are really burned out and compassion fatigue, that would be one of your why points. This is why we want to be looking at this. We want to be better. We want to do better for you, for all of us. I ask people to look at what is your attrition rate? Is it 25%, 30%, more? And what does that cost your organization? Or if you’re a county agency, what is it costing the taxpayers who are having to foot the bill for this constant revolving door of new people coming in and you’re having to onboard them and you’re interviewing and you’re spending a lot of time doing that, and what does that cost per employee and what is it? What’s the other costs for the employees that are still there trying to do the work of two or three people? The sometimes, unfortunately, people will make the change based on money, not what’s best for human beings. And I understand that. So we have to walk through the door that’s in front of us. And sometimes if you’re dealing with a county board or any board of directors or anybody that’s decision makers, they’re probably going to know what the dollars and cents would be. Why would we do this? So if you can keep your staff happy and they’re not the less likely to leave, that’s a good thing. If they’re doing the work and they’re not calling in sick all the time, that’s a good thing. So it’s really kind of looking at that way and then selling it. It’s really do the leaders, do they feel it’s worth it to make that effort? Because it is it is hard.

00;24;50;12 – 00;25;05;25
Rick Hoaglund
Are there any, like ethical or moral dilemmas that need to be resolved when you’re putting this together? Because I could see where some employers may say we are a business. We do not need to know trauma of our employees.

00;25;06;08 – 00;26;10;02
Scott Webb
Yeah, that’s a good question. And what I like to do is have organizations use what I call universal precautions. Let’s just enter this conversation. Just assuming that everybody you work for has an ACE score of ten. We don’t need to know their stories. Let’s just assume that everybody coming in because based on the data, there’s a fair number of people who work for you, who have the highest score. They may not again be aware of it or its ramifications, but it does affect them. So if you come in from that standpoint of just practice universal precautions, then what does that look like then? Isn’t it just good sense, good business sense, just to want to take care of the people that are in our charge, whether we’re a leader or a supervisor manager, and just work at becoming more approachable and creating the safe environment because it’s ultimate going to be better for everybody to do that. So I don’t see as an ethical issue so much because I just think that there is plenty of opportunity to get help from the EAP, from other sources if you have issues. But if we didn’t want to create this culture, let’s just assume everybody has a score of ten and go from there.

00;26;11;02 – 00;26;19;15
Rick Hoaglund
Should a company use their utilization rate on the EAP side to help determine if it’s a good idea to implement this program?

00;26;20;00 – 00;27;10;28
Scott Webb
Ooh, that’s another good question. I think that’s one thing that you could certainly look at now. I’ve been out of the game for a while. I don’t know what the utilization rate now. I think nationally it used to be like 6% of a population of the you had 6%. You’re probably okay. I love to see more of that. When I was in the EAP director, I was always interested in that information and looking at who was a prop, who was cutting in the EAP, what are the presenting issues? What could I do as an organization and to address some of those. So whether it be through training, But I would want to look at the utilization if it’s particularly high. Okay. They’re using the EAP. That’s good. What are they using it for? And is that an indicator that maybe we need to work on our culture a little bit, make our culture a little bit healthier? Would that help? And I think it wouldn’t hurt. It’s never going to hurt.

00;27;11;14 – 00;27;22;27
Rick Hoaglund
What advice do you have for someone that’s talking about implementing this? They’re in the process of saying, here are all the pros, here are all the cons. What advice do you have for them going forward if they decide to move forward?

00;27;23;07 – 00;28;57;16
Scott Webb
So I think, first thing is you really need to take time exploring what whether you want to do it or not and why. And I always emphasize the exploration phase of any implementation process because a lot of that that gets skipped a lot. We move right into implementation and doesn’t work. So you really need to be careful and you really need to have everything in line to really understand do we have the right resources, we have the right people, Do we have enough time? We have whatever. And I have a tool that I would give any organization called the Hexagon tool that would kind of guides you through these very key strategic questions looking at exploration because again, you don’t want to spend a lot of time and effort and money on something if you’re not fully invested in it and doing it in a very strategic way. But I really think taking it step by step and starting small start in one area like the credit union in lacrosse, started with their collections department. Start there. Don’t try to change the whole culture to start in one department and learn your lessons. There have a really good implementation team around. You have to be really big and I wouldn’t have people volun told they have to be part of this. They have to really be wanting to be a part of this change process, but really have a good implementation team, go through it strategically, start small, learn your lesson. It’s not going to be messy, it’s going to be bumpy. People don’t like change, but they have to sometimes have to reminded that what’s normal for you and always wants to change for somebody else. So just being aware of that, that change piece is you have to wrestle with it. So people really hold on to even a dysfunctional system that’s not really taking good care of them. They’ll hold on to that because that’s what they know in trauma survivors especially, we don’t like change very much.

00;28;58;04 – 00;29;01;29
Rick Hoaglund
Scott, thank you so much for joining us today and sharing with our listeners.

00;29;02;09 – 00;29;03;26
Scott Webb
I appreciate the opportunity. Thank you.

00;29;04;07 – 00;29;31;05
Rick Hoaglund
Next time on OnTopic, we’ll continue with Scott. We’ll talk about implementing trauma-informed care in your business or school. To hear that episode and other episodes of OnTopic with Empathia, visit our website, empathia.com. Follow us on social media @Empathia, and subscribe to OnTopic with Empathia to hear new episodes as soon as they go live. I’m Rick Hoaglund – thanks for listening to OnTopic with Empathia.